Pocket Plane Group

BG2 Completed Mods => Virtue => Topic started by: Venn on June 11, 2004, 12:09:58 PM

Title: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 11, 2004, 12:09:58 PM
This is really turning into a problem. I like the idea of the mod, but... my virtue is up to 18 already, and it seems that anything that helps someone else increases it. Which is definitely bad, because almost all quests have you helpiing people. And I want to have Korgan and Edwin in my party, to do their quests, but once I get 19 virtue they won't join or will leave, right? I would lose some virtue but I can't, cause I'm playing an Inquisitor....
There is no way I can prevent getting 19 virtue, right?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 11, 2004, 12:15:47 PM
Virtue promotes roleplaying. This, among other things, means that if you want evil people in your party, you're going to have to satisfy them. Therefore, between evil NPCs or good actions, you're going to have to sarcifice one or the other here...
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 11, 2004, 12:27:30 PM
I know... but I think virtue points are given a bit too freely in the game. Considering there's a maximum of 20, right? I'd think a Paladin gets to commit non-virtuous acts without losing his Paladin status... as that kind of struggle between good and evil within himself should be central to the whole Paladin idea. And especially if you consider that the PC is a Bhaalspawn. Though it's true I have yet to see an action that incurrs a Virtue penalty other than killing civilians. But, like I said before, you get too much virtue, really. Since a Paladin's supposed to be helping those in need, should he get virtue points for every slave he frees, and things like that?
What I mean is, I'm missing out on some quests cause they're evil, and I got no problem with that since it's not the first time I play the game... but still Virtue seems a bit unbalanced.
Sometimes I feel like I should get Virtue points if I do something to which the easy option would be the non-virtuous one... I mean, I kill a bunch of slavers, I talk to a slave child... of course I'll be freeing him, why be rewarded? And since buying stuff takes your reputation into account, it doesn't seem as though the virtue is a reward, rather than just an impediment to having evil characters in the party.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 11, 2004, 12:28:27 PM
Sorry if that didn't seem too clear.  :-\
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 11, 2004, 12:31:00 PM
Since a Paladin's supposed to be helping those in need, should he get virtue points for every slave he frees, and things like that?
Whether or not it's expected from him doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a good action or not, though.

Quote
What I mean is, I'm missing out on some quests cause they're evil, and I got no problem with that since it's not the first time I play the game... but still Virtue seems a bit unbalanced.
I think a lot of the unbalance comes from the tendency of Bioware to make the most beneficial quest solutions the "good" ones.

Quote
I mean, I kill a bunch of slavers, I talk to a slave child... of course I'll be freeing him, why be rewarded?
Virtue isn't a reward. It's a measure.

Quote
And since buying stuff takes your reputation into account, it doesn't seem as though the virtue is a reward, rather than just an impediment to having evil characters in the party.
At this point, it's worth noting that some time in the future, NPCs should take account of reputation changes rather than virtue changes if they are outside the party.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 11, 2004, 12:53:54 PM
it doesn't seem as though the virtue is a reward,
It's not meant to be a reward.
Quote
rather than just an impediment to having evil characters in the party.
A paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters; a paladin who ever commits an act of evil Falls.  It sounds like you're objecting to having to roleplay with a mod whose entire purpose is to enhance roleplay.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 11, 2004, 01:01:12 PM
Well, yeah I know that Virtue's not supposed to be a reward, regardless of what I said earlier.

About the "freeing children" thing... yeah, it's the right thing to do, but getting Virtue points for that, I think, is unwarranted, since there's not such a lot of points, anyway. If the max were 100, that would be okay, I guess...

And yes, Paladins wouldn't knowingly associate with evil characters, but... despite their alignments, Viconia and Korgan aren't evil. Korgan is more Chaotic Neutral actually, and Viconia never really gives you a reason to think she's evil other than her being a drow. She does get to change.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 11, 2004, 01:35:24 PM
Viconia and Korgan aren't evil. Korgan is more Chaotic Neutral actually,
Let's see.  Korgan is a vicious beast who killed two members of his previous adventuring party for no real reason.  He pushes you to kill other groups of adventurers for their equipment.  Every time he's outdoors at night, he jokes about raping a woman.  He turns down a prostitute in the Bridge District because it's no fun for him if the woman's not fighting him.  He insults everyone around him constantly, but if you say much milder things to him in the Copper Coronet, he goes red-circled and tries to kill you.  All the time he's in your party, he drives home how much he loves slaughter.

Yeah, that sounds exactly like "not evil, more Chaotic Neutral actually" to me.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Mongoose87 on June 11, 2004, 03:56:23 PM
Don't forget his tormenting of Arie
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 11, 2004, 04:07:22 PM
Viconia and Korgan aren't evil. Korgan is more Chaotic Neutral actually,
Let's see. Korgan is a vicious beast who killed two members of his previous adventuring party for no real reason. He pushes you to kill other groups of adventurers for their equipment. Every time he's outdoors at night, he jokes about raping a woman. He turns down a prostitute in the Bridge District because it's no fun for him if the woman's not fighting him. He insults everyone around him constantly, but if you say much milder things to him in the Copper Coronet, he goes red-circled and tries to kill you. All the time he's in your party, he drives home how much he loves slaughter.

Yeah, that sounds exactly like "not evil, more Chaotic Neutral actually" to me.

I was thinking about that after I posted. I actually think he's Neutral Evil, not Chaotic Evil. Still makes him evil, though.

But, to be honest, Aerie DESERVES to be tormented, she's just SO annoying.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 11, 2004, 05:05:24 PM
Although slightly left to what was the original topic, I'd like to add that IWD2 handled the paladin situation quite well, when it comes to rewards. Most of the time they don't get any. :D At least no money. Same for monks IIRC. I liked that, but I know it is not within the scope of Virtue.

I must say that after a couple of months disabling alignment troubles, getting multiple strongholds, sleeping tight and zipping through cutscenes, I now enjoy the tradeoff situation and the fuss and the problems. :D Life is hard.

If you really need a berserker and don't want to play one yourself, try Anomen with the NPCkits from gibberlings3.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 11, 2004, 05:35:20 PM
But, to be honest, Aerie DESERVES to be tormented, she's just SO annoying.
Uh-huh.  Why are you trying to play a paladin, again?  Just play a nice CE berserker, and you'll find your potential companions much more to your taste.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 11, 2004, 09:18:33 PM
But, to be honest, Aerie DESERVES to be tormented, she's just SO annoying.
Uh-huh. Why are you trying to play a paladin, again? Just play a nice CE berserker, and you'll find your potential companions much more to your taste.

That's not what I mean. I play an Inquisitor for two reasons: the class abilities, and to not play a fighter or bard since that's what I played before.
Not because I want to roleplay a Paladin, I mean, if you want to roleplay, surely a Bioware game is not your best bet.
I can definitely roleplay a Paladin, anyway, but I want to try and do all of the stuff in the game that there is to do.
My complaint is that it's just too easy to gain virtue points... and that it's a problem for me since I can't lose any. That was it.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 11, 2004, 09:40:19 PM
I play an Inquisitor for two reasons: the class abilities, and to not play a fighter or bard since that's what I played before.
Not because I want to roleplay a Paladin, I mean, if you want to roleplay, surely a Bioware game is not your best bet.
So you installed a mod which is all about roleplaying why?  If you could do what you're trying to do, it would show that there's a flaw in the mod.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Guest on June 11, 2004, 10:50:06 PM
I mean, if you want to roleplay, surely a Bioware game is not your best bet.

You've obviously never played KOTOR.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Mongoose87 on June 11, 2004, 11:16:06 PM
Yeah, KOTOR has RPing up the yingyang.  Slightly uncomfortable, but nonetheless interesting.  Seriously, if you don't want to follow the rules of being a paly, it's the worst class possible to bend the rules with.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Lord Kain on June 12, 2004, 01:23:58 AM
Listen and Listen well I ran an evil character with virtue instailed from chapter one to the final battle of ToB. It wasn't that hard. I didn't have to go and kill a random commonor just to bring it down.

Don't be nice. Be mean be cruel. You don't geting anything special for

Virture is suposed to show this. You can be an evil bastard but well loved.
As long as no one knows you did it your rep shouldn't change. But if you kill somebody because they looked at you funny thats a sign of evil.

A Paladin is suposed to fall if they commit an evil act.
Infact bioware is lose in that a paladin isn't allowed to be in the same party as evil characters. Unless there is no other chance. An example would be a demon army is about to be unleshed upon the world and only by working with the evil warrior can the paladin hope to win. If bioware was as strict as the rule then a paladin couldn't be in the same party as an evil character for most of the game.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 12, 2004, 08:31:01 PM
Yeah, KOTOR has RPing up the yingyang. Slightly uncomfortable, but nonetheless interesting. Seriously, if you don't want to follow the rules of being a paly, it's the worst class possible to bend the rules with.

Yeah, I played it. It was nice that you could be consistently evil throughout the game, but it still got very tedious... all dialogue was essentially the same, going over the same topics... there was a lot of dialogue, which is nice, but Bioware's writing is quite lame, really.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 12, 2004, 08:34:01 PM
Listen and Listen well I ran an evil character with virtue instailed from chapter one to the final battle of ToB. It wasn't that hard. I didn't have to go and kill a random commonor just to bring it down.

Don't be nice. Be mean be cruel. You don't geting anything special for

Virture is suposed to show this. You can be an evil bastard but well loved.
As long as no one knows you did it your rep shouldn't change. But if you kill somebody because they looked at you funny thats a sign of evil.

A Paladin is suposed to fall if they commit an evil act.
Infact bioware is lose in that a paladin isn't allowed to be in the same party as evil characters. Unless there is no other chance. An example would be a demon army is about to be unleshed upon the world and only by working with the evil warrior can the paladin hope to win. If bioware was as strict as the rule then a paladin couldn't be in the same party as an evil character for most of the game.

I just think that maybe, just maybe and it's just an opinion, Virtue points should be awarded in instances where you have a choice to make, a good vs evil choice, and there's a compromise in choosing the good option. You might be forfeiting a monetary reward, for the good of others, for example.

And I don't want to get into the debate of what the Paladin is and isn't and how they're supposed to act.
There's many conflicting sources out there, so everyone's right.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 12, 2004, 08:48:47 PM
The funny thing about alignments is that it is more a matrix than a ranking. I always thought that a lawful character would like a chaotic character just as much as a good an evil one. So a LG and LE would be a better combination than a LG and a CG.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 12, 2004, 09:38:43 PM
And I don't want to get into the debate of what the Paladin is and isn't and how they're supposed to act.
There's many conflicting sources out there, so everyone's right.
Conflicting sources about what a D&D paladin can and cannot do without Falling?  No, there really aren't.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 13, 2004, 07:18:12 PM
And I don't want to get into the debate of what the Paladin is and isn't and how they're supposed to act.
There's many conflicting sources out there, so everyone's right.
Conflicting sources about what a D&D paladin can and cannot do without Falling? No, there really aren't.

Yes there are. It really depends on which God the Paladin represents, and IF they represent a God or not.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Venn on June 13, 2004, 07:20:05 PM
The funny thing about alignments is that it is more a matrix than a ranking. I always thought that a lawful character would like a chaotic character just as much as a good an evil one. So a LG and LE would be a better combination than a LG and a CG.

And there's not really a conflict between a Paladin and Evil-aligned characters... Evil can mean a lot of things, FFS an egotistical person would be considered Evil...
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 13, 2004, 07:21:36 PM
And I don't want to get into the debate of what the Paladin is and isn't and how they're supposed to act.
There's many conflicting sources out there, so everyone's right.
Conflicting sources about what a D&D paladin can and cannot do without Falling?  No, there really aren't.

Yes there are. It really depends on which God the Paladin represents, and IF they represent a God or not.
Have you ever actually read the (A)D&D Player's Hanbook?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 13, 2004, 09:41:35 PM
And there's not really a conflict between a Paladin and Evil-aligned characters... Evil can mean a lot of things, FFS an egotistical person would be considered Evil...

No. A person who commits evil acts is evil. An egotistical person is merely annoying.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Lord Kain on June 14, 2004, 01:42:08 AM
Yes have any of you read the players hand book from any thing D&D, AD&D
3.0 or 3.5
Bioware was rather loose with the Paladins restrictions.
A Paladin is suposed to be pure of heart and all that stuff.
If superman played D&D he'd be a paladin. It fits rather well. Would superman and many other such super heroes work with a bad guy unless there was no other choice.

Paladins have a strict code of conduct. This is because they are a very most powerful classes. It doesn't show up in the game as much as it does on PnP.

If you don't play the real game of D&D you have no grounds in which to argue on this subject. I'm sorry but you don't. It just like someone who only plays Star Trek games but never watchs Star Trek shouldn't debate who's a better captain Picard or Kirk.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 14, 2004, 11:40:50 PM
It just like someone who only plays Star Trek games but never watchs Star Trek shouldn't debate who's a better captain Picard or Kirk.

Picard.  ;D
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 15, 2004, 04:28:09 AM
In Starfleet Academy in a future not as far away as you might think.

Teacher: Time is over . Hand in your tests.

Picard (looking veeeery pensive on an empty sheet): Dang, I wasted all the time daydreaming about 19th century stuff for the holodeck and my collection of useless, but very ancient clay figurines from distant worlds.

Kirk: I am not finished, but I wrestled bare chested with a space monster just outside the restrooms and it ate my test. I saved the day, sort of.


Definitely two very distinct approaches. :D But yes, neriana is right, Picard.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 15, 2004, 11:28:55 PM
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Virtue doesn't go up enough. Freeing the slaves in Ust Natha? Killing Dola Fadoon? These are both actions that benefit (relatively) Good-aligned Innocents, at the expense of some gold and exposing the party to potential discovery in a hostile environment. Yet the Virtue counter stays solid as a rock.

Where's the Virtue boost for clearing out a huge lair of Vampires that's been preying on the blood of the innocent? For singlehandedly tearing down a stronghold of Evil Thieves? For saving the Tree of Life?

Or let's consider the Temple District. Go Pickpocketing in the Temple of Helm, get caught at it, and seven people see you--and you take a Virtue hit for each one of them. So the message here is that robbing a lone person in the woods is more "virtuous" than robbing someone in a crowd? If anything, it's Reputation that should suffer relative to the number of witnesses.
Next, suppose you get caught burglarizing the Temple of Lathander, and in the scuffle, a Morning Knight gets killed, and your Virtue understandably takes a hit. So, you trot across the street and kill a follower of an Evil religion--and that nails your Virtue too! What gives?
Most Stores should adjust their prices relative to party Reputation.
Temples, however, should adjust according to Virtue.
Demi-Temples (such as Wallace in Trademeet) are a grey area....maybe have them take the average from both?

A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed. I would set the conditions for Falling to be if
a) Virtue drops below 12, or
b) Any single event that causes Virtue to drop by 2 or more points.

Next up on my comment list is that NPCs should remain in the party even if their Reputation is completely at odds with their Alignment: I can certainly see Edwin being pleased as punch at being hailed as a hero (laughing up his sleeve the whole time at these pathetic simpletons who are so easily misled)--as long as he knows what the party has really been up to behind everyone's backs. Keldorn, similarly, could tolerate being Despised (he suffers through Anomen, doesn't he?) as long as he can testify that the PC's actions are actually good and true.

Lastly, everybody talks too much. I can barely walk across a map area without some party member piping up with a comment on how pleased/displeased they are with my Virtue. Even the Happy comments get annoying after the 200th time. How much can this be slowed down? Once every couple of hours shoulf be plenty. Also, the Virtue comments cause the party members to stop whatever they're doing and tell the world just how they feel. If they're walking, they stop walking. If they're in Stealth, they break Stealth. I've never seen a spell get disrupted from this, but only time will tell. Note that it is not the Reputation comments that cause this--only Virtue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the whole, I think Virtue is a great idea that was well implemented--that's why I wrote you a negative post, same as I wrote for Kelsey. :) That makes sense, doesn't it? I just think it still needs work, and my feedback will probably be helpful. Good job and good luck with future work!

P.S. It's really weird watching the "Virtue vs. Hell Trials" duel right before the final battle. "She's Neutral Good!" "No, she's True Neutral!" "Neutral Good!" "True Neutral!"  ;D
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 15, 2004, 11:43:02 PM


A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed.
Hmm?  How a decision turns out doesn't matter to how virtuous it is.  Evil acts (ones which impact Virtue negatively) are (at least theoretically) supposed to be obvious to anyone.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Lord Kain on June 15, 2004, 11:55:03 PM
you shouldn't get virtue for doing anything that is required to advance towards the end of the game.

With Virtue instailed NPC happyness is based off of virture instead of rep. What are you talking about?

As Kish said before have you even read the players hand book.

A paladin WILL fall if he willing commits a single EVIL ACT!. If you want to be a paladin and have your group do dishonorble things shame on you! The rules for being a paladin have ALWAYS ALWAYS been strict. Thank you SimDing0 for forcing paladin plays who use the virtue mod to ACT like paladins.
"A knight is sworn to valor"
"His heart knows only virtue"
"His words speak only truth" 
"His blade defends the helpless"
"His wraith undoes the wicked!"

That little speech I rememeber from the movie dragon heart applys well for paladins. A Paladin should be truthful unless its to trick a foe in order to win later.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 16, 2004, 02:07:24 AM
For doing something your virtue should suffer, whereas for being seen by anyone doing it your rep should get hit IMO. There is always the option of being misunderstood however. That can be shaky and (to cite 'The Animals')don't let me be misunderstood.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: discharger12 on June 16, 2004, 08:40:25 AM
Yeah, KOTOR has RPing up the yingyang. Slightly uncomfortable, but nonetheless interesting. Seriously, if you don't want to follow the rules of being a paly, it's the worst class possible to bend the rules with.

Speaking of BioWare, how do you think Jade Empire looks compared to KoToR?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Mongoose87 on June 16, 2004, 11:12:29 AM
Havent played it, but this isn't the place to discuss that.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: discharger12 on June 16, 2004, 06:19:17 PM
Ooh, sorry, I forgot to put the "OFF TOPIC" phrase before my sentence.

But yes, you are right.  :P
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 17, 2004, 04:46:00 AM
A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed.
Hmm? How a decision turns out doesn't matter to how virtuous it is. Evil acts (ones which impact Virtue negatively) are (at least theoretically) supposed to be obvious to anyone.
Allow me to regale you with the tale of the first time I did Keldorn's quest. After the hulabaloo with Maria and his "Curse the dictates of honor" bit, I was presented with a choice:
1- "I think we should confront this Sir William, blah blah blah."
2- "Let us take this matter before the courts, and see that the wisest decision is made."
Naturally, I chose the latter path, since I didn't want Keldorn's family torn apart: Talking to a magistrate about this would allow cooler heads to prevail. And ANYTHING would be better than bringing the big guy with the big sword face-to-face with the guy who's been sharing Maria's bed.
Of course, we all know exactly how that decision turned out, don't we? :(

Translating this dilemma back into the context of Virtue, I don't want one simple mistake like this to result in the loss of my Paladin status. Nor do I want to become Fallen simply because I accepted Renal Bloodscalp's quest to kill Thieves (unavoidable Virtue hit after killing Rayic Gethras). Strictly enforcing roleplaying for Paladins is all well and good, but there's a line between strict and anal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another point I forgot to bring up in my earlier post: Having a party of 6 at Spellhold results in a 4-point Virtue drop when you tell Imoen you don't have room for her. Yet giving her the runaround--accepting her into the party, then booting her a second later--leaves your Virtue untouched. I suggest a happy medium, in the form of a conversation option that encourages Imoen to just hang around until you've cleared the way to the exit, and she can escape simply by following along.


you shouldn't get virtue for doing anything that is required to advance towards the end of the game.
I agree, and yet I also agree with the notion that you should get virtue for doing good deeds. When the two ideas contradict each other (e.g., Tree of Life), perhaps the PC's motives should come into play, perhaps through the use of conversation options:
1- "He's trying to sap all the power out of the Tree of Life!?! The gods only know what that might destroy! He must be stopped at all costs!"
2- "Just point me to the bastard that stole my soul, and you'll have your stupid Tree back soon enough."

Quote
With Virtue instailed NPC happyness is based off of virture instead of rep. What are you talking about?
I'm talking about Korgan & Edwin being pissed off when our Rep. is high but our Virtue is neutral.

Quote
A paladin WILL fall if he willing commits a single EVIL ACT!. If you want to be a paladin and have your group do dishonorble things shame on you!
In response, I'll bring up that Rayic Gethras Virtue hit again. Given what the PC knows about Cowled Wizards at that point, can killing a dude whose house is full of Evil Mephits actually be considered an evil act? (I can't recall at the moment if Gethras himself is Evil or not.) Gethras never really struck me as all that sympathetic a character, how about you?

Quote
A Paladin should be truthful unless its to trick a foe in order to win later.
What's that supposed to mean? "Always tell the truth, unless you can benefit by lying?"
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 17, 2004, 05:20:09 AM
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Virtue doesn't go up enough. Freeing the slaves in Ust Natha? Killing Dola Fadoon? These are both actions that benefit (relatively) Good-aligned Innocents, at the expense of some gold and exposing the party to potential discovery in a hostile environment. Yet the Virtue counter stays solid as a rock.
Freeing the slaves should affect it. I can't even remember who Dola Fadoon is, which is probably just what you want to hear right now, but I'll check it.

Quote
Where's the Virtue boost for clearing out a huge lair of Vampires that's been preying on the blood of the innocent? For singlehandedly tearing down a stronghold of Evil Thieves? For saving the Tree of Life?
As below, the problem is determining the character's intent. Virtue usually only goes up if the player's gone out of their way to perform good deeds. It's tricky territory, though.

Quote
Or let's consider the Temple District. Go Pickpocketing in the Temple of Helm, get caught at it, and seven people see you--and you take a Virtue hit for each one of them. So the message here is that robbing a lone person in the woods is more "virtuous" than robbing someone in a crowd? If anything, it's Reputation that should suffer relative to the number of witnesses.
That's a bug. It should be reputation that suffers, yes.

Quote
Next, suppose you get caught burglarizing the Temple of Lathander, and in the scuffle, a Morning Knight gets killed, and your Virtue understandably takes a hit. So, you trot across the street and kill a follower of an Evil religion--and that nails your Virtue too! What gives?
Talos should be able to take chaotic neutral worshippers too, I think, although the game prevents this, so it's not an exclusively evil religion. But even so, do you think it's virtuous to go round killing every malevolently-minded official in Athkatla who's just minding their own business?

Quote
Most Stores should adjust their prices relative to party Reputation.
Temples, however, should adjust according to Virtue.
Demi-Temples (such as Wallace in Trademeet) are a grey area....maybe have them take the average from both?
How do temples know how virtuous you are any better than stores? We could assume they cast Know Alignment, although I wouldn't be convinced of this, but then it's impossible to code to my satisfaction anyway. :)

Quote
A Paladin will Fall after committing a single unvirtuous act? As in a single ONE MEASLY 1-POINT VIRTUE DROP? Pardon me, but I think that's just a tad extreme, even for by-the-book Paladins. If a Paladin had mystical foreknowledge of exactly how every decision (s)he made was going to turn out, then yes, that "blade runner" ideal could apply, but this sudden-death approach means that any Paladin who's roleplaying anything less than 18 INT, 18 WIS, and 18 CHA is royally screwed. I would set the conditions for Falling to be if
a) Virtue drops below 12, or
b) Any single event that causes Virtue to drop by 2 or more points.
That means paladins get away with doing lots of small nasty things? I'm not convinced. I'd be more tempted to say that Paladins get allowed a two-point virtue drop, either all at once or separated, before they fall.
However, I'm still not sure that only allowing one is really so bad. Are there any decisions where "mystical foreknowledge" is required to see what you should be doing? The closest I can think of is getting a virtue drop for killing Aerie in ogre form, but I think that's quite fair.

Quote
Next up on my comment list is that NPCs should remain in the party even if their Reputation is completely at odds with their Alignment: I can certainly see Edwin being pleased as punch at being hailed as a hero (laughing up his sleeve the whole time at these pathetic simpletons who are so easily misled)--as long as he knows what the party has really been up to behind everyone's backs. Keldorn, similarly, could tolerate being Despised (he suffers through Anomen, doesn't he?) as long as he can testify that the PC's actions are actually good and true.
And this is exactly how it works...

Quote
Lastly, everybody talks too much. I can barely walk across a map area without some party member piping up with a comment on how pleased/displeased they are with my Virtue. Even the Happy comments get annoying after the 200th time. How much can this be slowed down? Once every couple of hours shoulf be plenty. Also, the Virtue comments cause the party members to stop whatever they're doing and tell the world just how they feel. If they're walking, they stop walking. If they're in Stealth, they break Stealth. I've never seen a spell get disrupted from this, but only time will tell. Note that it is not the Reputation comments that cause this--only Virtue.
There shouldn't even be reputation comments with this installed. But I'll make it so they only speak when they're standing around doing nothing. As for the time between comments, that was an arbitrary value dreamed up by a few of us in chat; they should become less frequent when I add an ActionListEmpty(), however.

Quote
On the whole, I think Virtue is a great idea that was well implemented--that's why I wrote you a negative post, same as I wrote for Kelsey. :) That makes sense, doesn't it? I just think it still needs work, and my feedback will probably be helpful. Good job and good luck with future work!
Thanks. I absolutely love negative posts. Seriously.

Quote
P.S. It's really weird watching the "Virtue vs. Hell Trials" duel right before the final battle. "She's Neutral Good!" "No, she's True Neutral!" "Neutral Good!" "True Neutral!"  ;D
Heh. I could probably add special handling to the Hell Trials to only add up all the Virtue changes at the very end, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile.

Quote
Nor do I want to become Fallen simply because I accepted Renal Bloodscalp's quest to kill Thieves (unavoidable Virtue hit after killing Rayic Gethras).
I'd rather deal with this as a separate issue and say "is killing Rayic evil?"

Quote
Another point I forgot to bring up in my earlier post: Having a party of 6 at Spellhold results in a 4-point Virtue drop when you tell Imoen you don't have room for her. Yet giving her the runaround--accepting her into the party, then booting her a second later--leaves your Virtue untouched. I suggest a happy medium, in the form of a conversation option that encourages Imoen to just hang around until you've cleared the way to the exit, and she can escape simply by following along.
There's a "good" dialogue option you can use to tell her to stay even when you have less than 6 people in the party, I think. However, Quest Pack should extract the suck from this situation at some point, since it'll allow you to find a way to get Imoen home.

Quote
I'm talking about Korgan & Edwin being pissed off when our Rep. is high but our Virtue is neutral.
They're liable to complain at high-ish neutral virtue, but shouldn't be leaving any time soon.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 17, 2004, 12:11:33 PM
Talos should be able to take chaotic neutral worshippers too, I think, although the game prevents this, so it's not an exclusively evil religion.
Er, hey.  Talos is a Chaotic Evil god.  He accepts Chaotic Neutral worshipers, but every priest of Talos is dedicated to causing suffering, misery, and destruction.
Quote
But even so, do you think it's virtuous to go round killing every malevolently-minded official in Athkatla who's just minding their own business?
Considering that their business, as reflected in the Temple of Talos stronghold quests, is "ruining the lives of innocent people," absolutely.  Is there a Virtue hit for walking into an orc lair and killing the orcs there?  They deserve the title "innocent" much more than priests of Talos do.
Quote
But I'll make it so they only speak when they're standing around doing nothing.
That's going to make the Virtue comments pretty rare.

Quote
Quote
Nor do I want to become Fallen simply because I accepted Renal Bloodscalp's quest to kill Thieves (unavoidable Virtue hit after killing Rayic Gethras).
I'd rather deal with this as a separate issue and say "is killing Rayic evil?"
If you just look at that--and not, say, the fact that you're sent to kill him by someone who's pretty thoroughly vile and has a history of wanting you to kill Lawful Good mages--then, well, he's wearing the Amnish equivalent of an S. S. uniform.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 17, 2004, 12:24:27 PM
@ S. S. uniform: I hope that means Star Sailor otherwise it is a very.. unpleasant argument.

Your orc argument is exactly what makes Virtue very tricky. For people who clear out (sic!) all three lairs in the Underdark to get Adalon's eggs back that would be a Virtue issue IMHO. You only need one and -in an otherwise unmodded game  IIRC- the eyestalk is obtainable with comparably little bloodshed.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 17, 2004, 04:23:17 PM
@ S. S. uniform: I hope that means Star Sailor otherwise it is a very.. unpleasant argument.
I think it's pretty obvious what I mean.  What do you mean, a "very...unpleasant argument"?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 17, 2004, 04:32:16 PM
I do not like any Nazi symbolism in arguments as it distracts from the true horror of this regime. In the fantasy-medieval setting of BG I would say they aren't particularily evil. Whoever came up with the idea, but keeping street magic use under tight regulation per se is not that evil (Not that I ever cared. It always seemed only centered on my use of magic, so I ended up killing them anyways). Do the CW actively hunt down and kill mages and their families? Very off topic, but I just wanted to frown at the comparison.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 17, 2004, 04:34:40 PM
Quote
Considering that their business, as reflected in the Temple of Talos stronghold quests, is "ruining the lives of innocent people," absolutely.  Is there a Virtue hit for walking into an orc lair and killing the orcs there?  They deserve the title "innocent" much more than priests of Talos do.
The orcs are rather less friendly towards you than the Talosian priests.

That's going to make the Virtue comments pretty rare.
As I said in chat, it's that or lose the bulging white circle.

Quote
If you just look at that--and not, say, the fact that you're sent to kill him by someone who's pretty thoroughly vile and has a history of wanting you to kill Lawful Good mages--then, well, he's wearing the Amnish equivalent of an S. S. uniform.
So you think this is worth considering as well as the nature of the action itself? Doesn't that make wiping out Bodhi's lair in the name of the Shadow Thieves pretty evil?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 17, 2004, 04:43:24 PM
I do not like any Nazi symbolism in arguments as it distracts from the true horror of this regime. In the fantasy-medieval setting of BG I would say they aren't particularily evil. Whoever came up with the idea, but keeping street magic use under tight regulation per se is not that evil (Not that I ever cared. It always seemed only centered on my use of magic, so I ended up killing them anyways). Do the CW actively hunt down and kill mages and their families? Very off topic, but I just wanted to frown at the comparison.

I disagree with both points. I won't argue about the Nazi comparison per se because I don't think that will get anywhere, and it's probably not appropriate for this forum.

However, the second point: the Cowled Wizards are definitely fascist. If you don't belong to their group and dare to practice magic (and they do actively hunt down anyone who does), they throw you into jail and experiment on you. They want you to kill Valygar so they can use his body to get to more power. They are thoroughly evil.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 17, 2004, 04:45:44 PM
Quote
If you just look at that--and not, say, the fact that you're sent to kill him by someone who's pretty thoroughly vile and has a history of wanting you to kill Lawful Good mages--then, well, he's wearing the Amnish equivalent of an S. S. uniform.
So you think this is worth considering as well as the nature of the action itself? Doesn't that make wiping out Bodhi's lair in the name of the Shadow Thieves pretty evil?
Okay, I've reread what you said, and this reply makes no sense.

[EDIT] Wait. Yes it does.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 17, 2004, 05:01:14 PM
I do not like any Nazi symbolism in arguments as it distracts from the true horror of this regime. In the fantasy-medieval setting of BG I would say they aren't particularily evil.
Not particularly evil?

The people they seize--whether for defending themselves or for using a Tenser's Floating Disk--disappear forever without trial and with their fates never being revealed to anyone else.  They don't answer even to the already-corrupt government of Athkatla, and when they discover an innocent man is the key to accessing the giant sphere that offers them a chance to enhance their power, they send a goon squad to bring him back dead or alive.  Not particularly evil?
Quote
Very off topic, but I just wanted to frown at the comparison.
Frown at whatever you like--I don't make comparisons to please you.
The orcs are rather less friendly towards you than the Talosian priests.
Yes, they're stupider and less subtle, which is why they're a lot less dangerous--and usually less evil, too.  Currently you have it that it's just fine to kill a monster if it looks like an orc, but not if it looks like a man.  That seems badly messed up to me.

In any case, what happens during the final Temple of Lathander stronghold quest?  Do you lose Virtue for killing them then?
Quote
Quote
That's going to make the Virtue comments pretty rare.
As I said in chat, it's that or lose the bulging white circle.
...Um.  Not saying anything > saying something without a bulging white circle?  I find your priorities rather...odd.
Quote
So you think this is worth considering as well as the nature of the action itself?
I think the action itself is, like killing a hostile orc or a Priest of Talos, morally neutral.  Whether the fact that you're killing at Edwin's behest makes the killing evil or not, I'm not sure of, but if it doesn't, then nothing does and the action is not evil.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 17, 2004, 05:07:58 PM
Quote
Yes, they're stupider and less subtle, which is why they're a lot less dangerous--and usually less evil, too.  Currently you have it that it's just fine to kill a monster if it looks like an orc, but not if it looks like a man.
Really? You're forgetting that charging ahead killing Aerie before you've established her intent is evil. On the other hand, killing anything that's fairly blatantly trying to remove parts of your anatomy seems acceptable.

Quote
In any case, what happens during the final Temple of Lathander stronghold quest?  Do you lose Virtue for killing them then?
A while back someone brought this up, and I altered it so that you don't lose Virtue for killing them. They turn hostile first, incidentally.

Quote
...Um.  Not saying anything > saying something without a bulging white circle?  I find your priorities rather...odd.
NPCs saying something is to me superior to a disembodied voice saying something.

Quote
I think the action itself is, like killing a hostile orc or a Priest of Talos, morally neutral.  Whether the fact that you're killing at Edwin's behest makes the killing evil or not, I'm not sure of, but if it doesn't, then nothing does and the action is not evil.
Yes, I think it comes down to a similar situation to the Talosians: murdering someone who's minding their own business but has connections to a fairly nasty organisation.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 17, 2004, 05:19:29 PM
Quote
Yes, they're stupider and less subtle, which is why they're a lot less dangerous--and usually less evil, too.  Currently you have it that it's just fine to kill a monster if it looks like an orc, but not if it looks like a man.
Really? You're forgetting that charging ahead killing Aerie before you've established her intent is evil.
On the contrary, that's exactly the point.  Orcs who attack you are monsters.  The Priests of Talos, as any PC with a rudimentary knowledge of Talos' doctrine should know, are monsters.  Aerie, whatever she looks like, is not a monster.
Quote
NPCs saying something is to me superior to a disembodied voice saying something.
And the presence or absence of the "bulging white circle" makes the critical difference to whether you view the NPC as actually saying something?  I see.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 17, 2004, 05:22:17 PM
On the contrary, that's exactly the point.  Orcs who attack you are monsters.  The Priests of Talos, as any PC with a rudimentary knowledge of Talos' doctrine should know, are monsters.  Aerie, whatever she looks like, is not a monster.
But is it not being rather assertive? You're charging ahead killing priests of Talos without them actually doing anything nasty you can see, just as you charge ahead killing an ogre (Aerie) that's not doing anything particularly dangerous.

Quote
And the presence or absence of the "bulging white circle" makes the critical difference to whether you view the NPC as actually saying something?  I see.
Yes. It's fairly evident that all other lines of this nature are accompanied by a bulging circle. Some not having them is going to look odd indeed.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 17, 2004, 05:34:36 PM
On the contrary, that's exactly the point.  Orcs who attack you are monsters.  The Priests of Talos, as any PC with a rudimentary knowledge of Talos' doctrine should know, are monsters.  Aerie, whatever she looks like, is not a monster.
But is it not being rather assertive? You're charging ahead killing priests of Talos without them actually doing anything nasty you can see, just as you charge ahead killing an ogre (Aerie) that's not doing anything particularly dangerous.
Being a priest of Talos is a choice--being an ogre isn't.  Aside from knowing exactly what the Priests of Talos have dedicated themselves to, you can talk to them and they will confirm that they despise goodness and believe in hatred, chaos, and destruction.  Without the limitations of a computer game, you'd also be able to go to the Temple of Lathander or the Order of the Radiant Heart and ask them what the Temple of Talos has been doing lately, if you were unclear on exactly what "minding their own business" means to followers of the Raging One.

Quote
Yes. It's fairly evident that all other lines of this nature are accompanied by a bulging circle.
Oh, I see.  They've never all had that circle in my games.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 17, 2004, 06:51:54 PM
Quote
The people they seize--whether for defending themselves or for using a Tenser's Floating Disk--disappear forever without trial and with their fates never being revealed to anyone else.  They don't answer even to the already-corrupt government of Athkatla, and when they discover an innocent man is the key to accessing the giant sphere that offers them a chance to enhance their power, they send a goon squad to bring him back dead or alive.  Not particularly evil?

Apart from the somewhat racist approach that you can kill anything and anyone along the way as long as it qualifies as a 'monster' and still stay on the good side, I do think that they are an evil organization, but not more so than the Shadow thieves who use your goon squad to do their dirty work. If I had to choose to work for the CWs or the STs I would call it a draw morally.The Talos priests deserve to die because they are evil? Does the same apply to Vic?

For me Spellhold is more like Guantanamo. Detainees are there to be softened up and questioned for the greater good of the Amnish citizens.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 17, 2004, 10:07:17 PM

For me Spellhold is more like Guantanamo. Detainees are there to be softened up and questioned for the greater good of the Amnish citizens.

Oh yeah. "Softened up." Have you read the news lately? "Softened up" means humiliated, threatened, raped, and tortured in many other ways. "For the greater safety"??? Right, I feel a hell of a lot safer now that I know just what my country, specifically this administration, is capable of. They say it's not torture unless your ONLY goal is to inflict pain, and that pain has to be equivalent to major organ failure or death. If you don't think that's evil, why do you care about anything in Virtue in the first place? They aren't wearing Nazi uniforms, so it can't possibly be evil? Men being torn from their families, not charged with anything, and kept at the whim of the chief executive, and anything at all can be done to them because King George says so and that's not evil?!

I could point out how your parallels were totally wrong in BG2, like for instance that Wanev experiments on prisoners, but it's not worth it if you can't see that torture is torture is evil no matter how you slice it.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 18, 2004, 12:41:37 AM
No, neriana, I am a 100% with you on that and I did not pick this picture without reason. I read a lot of stuff about how the free world is fighting 'the bad guys' alll over the world. My guess or hope always has been that any sober citizen in the US must feel the same way as you do, so all is not lost.

My question is, if being evil in BG2, warrants to be whacked no matter what. If it was possible, should a paladin also kill Rayic without being told to do so. All the points still apply apart from the fact that it would not be Edwin's quest. Shouldn't a paladin 'clear out' the Talos temple to begin with?

You do not get a viable choice like in the Embarl situation.

On a sidenote: In Europe you hear sometimes the Nazi comparison pop up (Sadly in Austria mostly from right-wing MFs who are in complete denial about this monstrosity in the first place). Even PETA claimed that what we do to animals is like the Holocaust. I think inaccurate historic parallels are good for the tabloids, but hinder real debate.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 01:28:20 AM
Actually, the three lairs in the Underdark make a better example than "an orc."

Let's assume, here, that the PC goes to the drow city before any of the other Underdark cities.  S/he is told that Matron Mother Ardulace wants the blood of a kuo-toa prince, the eye of an Elder Orb Beholder, or the blood of an illithid elder-brain, and where to find them.  How is this morally different from Edwin's quest to kill Rayic?

Because it's necessary?  No, it isn't--the PC can kill Ardulace, seize the eggs, and fight his/her way out of the drow city.  The drow have allied with Irenicus, stolen Adalon's eggs, held them hostage, and planned to double-cross her and sacrifice them; the other Underdark denizens have done nothing to you.  (Moreover, I'd actually contend that even if you actually needed the Elder Orb's eye, it wouldn't make killing the Elder Orb justifiable--why should the Elder Orb care about your needs?
CHARNAME: I'm justified in killing the Elder Orb because I need its eye.
IRENICUS: Interesting you should say that--I'm justified in killing you because I need your soul.  Glad to see you're making no pretense of a moral high ground, here.)
Because they attack you on sight?  If you came into my home planning to kill me and cut my eye out, I'd shoot you on sight, too.
The only reason I can see for the distinction, then, is that the Elder Orb looks, physically, a lot creepier than Rayic Gethras to human sensibilities.

And what about those players--most players, I bet--who explore and depopulate not one of the Underdark areas, but three?  When you already have the Elder Orb's eye, why is going into the kuo-toa caverns planning to kill and rob all the sapient beings there, because you can, more justifiable than going into the Temple of Talos and killing all the worshipers?  Again, kuo-toa are in no way more monstrous than priests of Talos.

I'm really neutral on whether you should make it "not evil" to kill human monsters or make it "evil" to kill nonhuman ones, but I think it's important to be consistent--and Virtue is not consistent as it stands.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 18, 2004, 03:34:23 AM
Because they attack you on sight?  If you came into my home planning to kill me and cut my eye out, I'd shoot you on sight, too.
And if you go there before you've even heard anything about the quest?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 03:36:19 AM
A tragic misunderstanding.  Not evil.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Lord Kain on June 18, 2004, 04:29:55 AM
In D&D many creatures are born evil.
Chromatic Dragons, Red, Blue Green, Black, White are born evil.
Likewise Metalic Dragons Gold, Bronze, Silver, Brass, Copper are born good.

What it comes down to is how smart is the critter when its born.

Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Orcs, Ogres, Giants and the other demi-humans are born just as smart as human babies are born. Depending on how they are raised will affect there alignment. But like with people sometimes they become something unexpected.

Dragons are born with the ability to speak at lest. Some types of dragons are born with int scores of above 10. Being born with all that knowldge and the magical nature locks them in. Unless some great cosmic event occurs they will remain that way forever.

Lets look at the three groups in the underdark.
The Beholder Lair, Beholders are naturally evil only rare magical events make them otherwise. (unless they are Specter beholder or a beholderkin) They only a Specter beholder in Baldurs gate.

Mind Flayer lair. First off if you enter no matter the timing they inslave you and force you to fight. I don't know if a mind flayer is born evil. I don't have a clue how they are born. Do mind flayers spawn off of a elder brain. However the fact Mind Flayers feed off of the brains of sentient creatures would drive them to be evil.

As for the kuo-toa I don't think they are born evil. But they do have a habbit of eating other humanoids.

Remeber the story of the Scorpian and the Toad.
"its in my nature"
For many creatures evil is in there nature and the only thing you can count on them to do is whats in there own best interest.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 18, 2004, 09:56:07 AM
How much is the virtue hit for killing off the Kuo-Toa hatchlings and sealing the fate of the Saguain, since I cannot remember off the top of my head, if there is any. I think you get a slightly better reward for siding with the king (So even more evil to do it for that reason).
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Ghreyfain on June 18, 2004, 11:42:46 AM
Do you mean the Kuo-toa hatchlings?  I don't think I've ever seen an option to kill Sahuagin hatchlings.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 12:32:52 PM
"Born evil" is a ridiculous concept.  If it has sapience, it has a choice.

Does the name "Fall-From-Grace" mean anything to you?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 18, 2004, 12:38:43 PM
A tragic misunderstanding.  Not evil.
I'm as bored with constantly bringing up the Aerie analogy as anyone else. But, for what it's worth, how does the misunderstanding here differ from attacking an ogre before you discern its intent?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 12:41:50 PM
So do you think there should be Virtue hits for invading the beholder, illithid, and kuo-toa cities at any time?  I'd find that preferable to the way it is now.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 18, 2004, 12:44:40 PM
Huh? No, I'm reiterating that "they attack you first". For sentient beings, they don't do a great deal to find out why you're there.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 12:53:28 PM
Neither does Rayic.  But killing him is wrong, apparently, and killing and mutilating the beholders, kuo-toa, and illithids is right.

Finding an ogre in a circus is also weird enough to make you wonder what's going on, and Aerie addresses you first.  Finding a drow raiding party entering the beholder city is not weird at all--indeed, you're not even the only group of "drow" there.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 18, 2004, 12:56:13 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rayic makes it fairly clear that he wants you to leave. The Beholders aren't so generous.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 01:17:21 PM
And that makes it all right to go to their city to kill them?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 18, 2004, 01:24:45 PM
I'd say that if you stumble across a group of creatures and they attack you for no reason, you're quite within your rights to defend yourself.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 01:47:50 PM
That's nice.  It's not what I asked, though.

I asked if it was justified to go to their cities after the Matron Mother told you they're there, to kill them and cut them up for her spell.  You changed the subject to "what if you just stumble into them?" and have been ignoring my question ever since.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 18, 2004, 01:56:46 PM
They don't know whether you've come to steal their eyestalks or blow them kisses. They're still hostile either way.

And isn't it rather presumptuous to say that even after the player has been ordered to go there to kill them, he actually intends to do what the Matron Mother says? Personally, I'd be just as happy to try going down and chatting to the intelligent creatures about it. But nope, they want to kill me anyway.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 18, 2004, 02:15:50 PM
Huh? No, I'm reiterating that "they attack you first". For sentient beings, they don't do a great deal to find out why you're there.

Why should everybody else care that you are a soulless spawn of a human god. The Beholders as an example are minding their own business apart from fending off occasional drow raiders.

Quote
I'd say that if you stumble across a group of creatures and they attack you for no reason, you're quite within your rights to defend yourself.
Preemptive strike as self defense strikes a familiar chord. Rayic asks you to leave which is quite a lot considering that you have already sneaked past two signs that you are an unwanted trespasser. As a member of the CW he is quite aware that anyone who makes it past this defenses is there for a reason. I doubt he thinks you are from the Jehova's witnesses as he probably had a fair share of ST assassins looking for him. Perhaps there should be an option in the underdark to talk first and leave. The only exception would be the Mindflayers since you are poultry to them and no hungry Mindflayer would pass up on Kelsey or Imoen.


If you have a line that asks you to leave, a small virtue hit would be in order I think.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 02:16:22 PM
You know you look like drow and that they have every reason to expect hostility from drow.  I can't think of anything you have to "chat" with them about.

However, I give up--I see that the current standards for justifying killing are not about to change.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 18, 2004, 02:23:10 PM
Damn, sorry I forgot about my appearance. This would make it harder for the Beholder part as they are already fighting a drow party and we look like reinforcements. Now it makes it possible for the MFs however as they are already striking a deal inside the city.

for example:

MF: ' You have no business here. Leave now! Our emissiaries await you at your city.'

Addendum: You kill the Kuo-Toa by poisoning their hatchlings, the Saghuain by killing the prince. Any hits for this?

Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 18, 2004, 03:45:16 PM
I'm not sure about the others, but I don't believe you should take a Virtue hit for killing the illithid. When you enter their lair, they enslave you and force you to fight. They have already enslaved others and are forcing them to do the same.

Also, these particular Beholders and Kua-Toa really are evil. The first time I played, I ran into the Beholders simply from exploring the Underdark, and they attacked me. I don't think it was wrong to defend myself. Further, the only way to avoid the drow is to run through the Kua-Toa lair.

I suppose the question is whether you should take a Virtue hit for accepting the Matron Mother's proposition. Since the alternative is to slaughter the entire drow city, I don't think you should. It's supposed to be an impossible situation, and there are no good choices. If you started really picking at it, you'd end up with an extremely low Virtue for regaining the silver dragon eggs.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 03:53:27 PM
But why is it worse to slaughter the drow city than to slaughter the beholder city, or the kuo-toa city, or to plan to slaughter the illithid city (with no way of knowing they'll try to enslave you)?  The drow are guilty of allying with Irenicus, stealing Adalon's eggs, holding them hostage, and planning to sacrifice them.  The other races are, as far as you know at that time (unless you already met them by accident, of course), innocent.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Imrahil on June 18, 2004, 04:20:31 PM
Theoretically it should be impossible to slaughter an entire Drow city, so I don't truly see that as a valid role-playing option. Plus, you have to get one of the ingredients before you even know where the Eggs are being kept (do you even know that House Despana has them before Phaere asks you to betray the Matron Mother?). The only "realistic" option for a Good player who wants to help Adalon is to play along with Phaere & the Matron Mother & make the switch.

For ambiguous cases like these, I'd only put in a Virtue hit for options that have a peaceful resolution but the player chooses not to take it. For example...
- Mae'Var asks you to kill Embarl, but you don't have to actually kill him to complete the mission, so if you do kill him, you take a hit.
- Edwin asks you to kill Reyic and there's no other way to complete the mission without doing it, so no hit.
- Phaere asks you to kill a Svirfneblin patrol, but you have the option of talking to them, so killing them = a hit.
- The Matron Mother asks you to kill Mind Flayers/Beholders/Kou Toa and there's no (legitimate) way to complete the mission without doing so, so no hit (by the way, would it make a difference if she asked you to kill a Red Dragon?)

It's probably not within the scope of the Virtue MOD, but a better solution would be to add non-violent methods to deal with Reyic (by talking to him or just lying to Edwin) or a different way to complete the Matron Mother's request and/or get the Eggs back.

- Imrahil
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 18, 2004, 04:30:13 PM
First, can illithid ever possibly be "innocent"? I admit that I am probably prejudiced against them (I really hate illithid), but the whole point of their existence seems to be to enslave and suck the brains of other races. Further, these illithid are not innocent by any stretch of the imagination. They have enslaved people for pit fights, and they have enslaved other people and stuck them to a machine. Killing them to free yourself and others is a good thing, not a bad thing, since there's no other way to go about it. Like I said, I'm not sure about the Beholders and Kua-Toa because I don't know enough about them. But from what I can tell, they are also born evil, can't change, and don't want to change. This doesn't happen in the real world, but D&D is pure fantasy.

I do think it's "worse" to slaughter the drow, because they seem altogether more open to change. It is certainly an unintelligent thing to attempt. I don't think people should have to give up all self-interest in order to retain their virtue.

Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 18, 2004, 04:44:27 PM
First, can illithid ever possibly be "innocent"? I admit that I am probably prejudiced against them (I really hate illithid), but the whole point of their existence seems to be to enslave and suck the brains of other races. Further, these illithid are not innocent by any stretch of the imagination. They have enslaved people for pit fights, and they have enslaved other people and stuck them to a machine.
None of which you have any way of knowing until you've already gone to their city.  The question is whether it's evil to agree when someone who is obviously evil says, "Go to a neighboring city and slaughter the most prominent resident for me, dealing with any other residents who get in your way."
Quote
I do think it's "worse" to slaughter the drow, because they seem altogether more open to change. It is certainly an unintelligent thing to attempt.
Why?

Remember--the other three races are rivals to the drow, not lessers.  Destroying an illithid city should, on average, be just as difficult as destroying a drow city (in this case destroying the drow city in the game is easier than destroying the illithid city in the game, which is not remarkable).
Quote
I don't think people should have to give up all self-interest in order to retain their virtue.
All self-interest, no.  But should people not have to give up willingness to kill for their own gain to retain their virtue?  Again, that has interesting implications if applied to the case of Irenicus stealing the PC's soul.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 18, 2004, 05:04:54 PM
None of which you have any way of knowing until you've already gone to their city. The question is whether it's evil to agree when someone who is obviously evil says, "Go to a neighboring city and slaughter the most prominent resident for me, dealing with any other residents who get in your way."

Yes, so the question is whether you should take a virtue hit for saying "yes" during that conversation.

Quote
Quote
I do think it's "worse" to slaughter the drow, because they seem altogether more open to change. It is certainly an unintelligent thing to attempt.
Why?
Because I have seen no evidence of illithid, Beholders, or Kua-Toa who have changed, but many drow have. They are less monolithic than the other races in question.

Quote
Quote
I don't think people should have to give up all self-interest in order to retain their virtue.
All self-interest, no. But should people not have to give up willingness to kill for their own gain to retain their virtue? Again, that has interesting implications if applied to the case of Irenicus stealing the PC's soul.

Not necessarily. If they are killing to regain their soul, or to save their lives, or to free slaves, as a few examples, they should retain their Virtue. Irenicus went out and stole an innocent person's soul purely for his own gain, and he could have repented and been welcomed back. I believe that stripping his soul in the first place and then trying to make him someone else's problem was also wrong, both morally and practically.

Edit: Corrected the overwhelming purpleness.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 18, 2004, 06:02:00 PM
The self defense argument in the case you stumbled into one of the cities is only valid, if you withdraw from combat after securing your retreat, and not 'clear out' the entire lair. Good people (Paladins above all) are meant to be very constrained by their beliefs, whereas clearly Korgan could free the slaves just because he likes killing others regardless of their trade, there is more money in it (A substiantial game flaw that the slavers do not counter your threat and try to bribe you like the rest of the city) or he just did not like L. either. Killing soemone else, because of the loot or it is the easiest way is definitely not a virtuos approach.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Imrahil on June 19, 2004, 01:27:29 AM
Would it be Evil then if Adalon asked you to storm Ust Natha & retrieve her Eggs by force?  Does the source of the request to attack a known Evil, enslaving race factor in at all?

I think some races are considered inherently Evil (Drow, Illithid, Red Dragons, Beholders, etc.) & a Paladin might routinely be charged with wiping out a settlement "for the greater good".  Certain lone exceptions aside, those races are known for attacking civilized races, slavery, torture, even feeding on the civilized races.

As has been pointed out, you accomplish a great deal of Good by taking out the Illithid - freeing their human slaves.  Maybe the Virtue MOD could add a "hint" - Ardulace could mention that they have recently captured a group of Humans - this would be motivation enough for a Good character (& certainly a Paladin) to mount an assault, freeing the slaves while fulfilling the Matron Mother's request.  If you take one of the easier routes (& IMO the Beholders & the Kuo Toa are easier), then you might be open to a Virtue hit (although I'd still maintain that Beholders are a "known" Evil).

- Imrahil
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 19, 2004, 01:35:42 AM
"Are considered?"  Passive voice alert.  Who considers?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Imrahil on June 19, 2004, 01:52:44 AM
Errr... the general public of every human, elven, dwarven, & halfling civilization?  Are you *really* asking who considers Drow & Red Dragons Evil?  Maybe I should just try for a more active voice... or am I missing something? 

- Imrahil
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 19, 2004, 02:03:30 AM
I'm asking who considers drow and red dragons inherently evil--rather than culturally evil.  Someone who's never heard of Drizzt, I presume?
Quote
Maybe I should just try for a more active voice... or am I missing something? 
I'll put it more directly, if you like:
"Inherently evil" is a load of immoral hogwash.  Certain (low-quality) works of fiction use it, but in decent fiction, as in reality, villains need reasons to be villains beyond "because they are."
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 19, 2004, 02:40:49 AM
Dola Fadoon is the Genie being tortured by a group of Drow just inside Ust Natha. They heal him at the same rate that they injure him, so he cannot achieve death and so return to his home plane. He makes loud, repeated requests for a mortal blow. If the party kills him, they must either pay the torturers blood money or have the city turn hostile to them.

The discussion of "Is it right to kill Evil creatures if they're staying within defined boundaries and minding their own business" is indeed a worthy one, but drawing Paladins into it is a fallacy: Paladins are Holy Warriors, and as such would only let you get as far as, "Is it right to kill Evil creatures--" before they responded with a resounding Yes.

With this in mind, the prospect of a Virtue hit for invading the various Tunnels might actually have to take the PC's Alignment into account. A LG Paladin, as stated above, would be perfectly in character in striding into the Beholder hive, killing the gatekeepers in a combination of racial assumption and self-defense, tossing up a Detect Evil to confirm his hunch about the rest of the place, and then casually processing sliced meat out of the things. Therefore, no Virtue hit. A Druid, on the other hand, would be disastrously unbalancing the Underdark ecosystem by annihilating a major race (and the pre-Tactics Beholder lair is the only area where you can reach the "objective" without destroying pretty much the entire place, unless you count the Drow stuck in buildings in Ust Natha), and therefore probably should take a Virtue hit for breaking from their alignment. Holy crap, is the philosophy behind all this getting convoluted! I'm going to go home and rebalance Sahuagin, that's much simpler.  ::)
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Crokus on June 19, 2004, 05:04:52 AM
Well if your in the sahuagin city Keldorn advises you to kill every last one of them since they're evil. If he would be there with his Radiant Heart buddies they would. Would they all become fallen paladins?

As for the Mae'Var quest I doubt any lawful person would kill a CW just becaus an evil RW told them. There even is a way of completing the quest for good people - kill edwin.

Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: seanas on June 19, 2004, 01:53:54 PM
i've been staying out of this debate cos i didnt want to wade into another argument about morality, but i find i have to now because, Kish, you've persuaded me.

what yr saying, yeah, is that there's an anthropocentrism to Virtue - as indeed there is to all AD&D: it's ok to kill evil monsters without a reason because they're inherently evil; it's not ok to kill evil humans such as the CW without a reason, because although they're evil they have free will, and so aren't necessarily committng evil acts at the time we're killing them: of which the Talossians and Rayic Gethras are excellent examples.

short of re-writing huge portions of BGII to give mindflayers, beholders, trolls, etc the ability to choose whether or not to attack the party, the only option for a virtue-mod can be attack blue=bad; attack red=good. it isnt consistent with any notion of morality or of alignment [which would pretty much require LG to attack CE, etc, unless there were mitigating circumstances, i would have thought] but it *is* consistent with the game engine.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 19, 2004, 02:01:31 PM
short of re-writing huge portions of BGII to give mindflayers, beholders, trolls, etc the ability to choose whether or not to attack the party,
What?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: nurgles_herald on June 19, 2004, 09:25:51 PM
But why are drow, illithids, goblinoids, etc. culturally evil? Why were they driven to such a status, to become so morally destitute that, though they may not be on the verge of extinction, they still commit wholesale slaughterings of innocent bystanders? Personally, I like to blame racial hatred- the humans, elves, haflings, dwarves, gnomes etc. (good creatures) banned together to poopoo the 'evil' creatures, all of which happen to either be ugly (beholders), carnivorous in disturbing ways (vampires, goblins) or both (illithids). The only exception to this rule is the drow, who I think were simply massacred by the elves for sadistic glee...

Translated- I believe that, under the pro-munchkindomness of DnD in today's day of age, every race is evil. The 'good' races committed horrible attrocities upon the 'evil' races for being socially unacceptable. In response, the 'evil' races fought back. Over time, though, the 'good' races wanted to seem higher than the 'evil' races and thus left the 'evil' races to wallow in morally destitute practices such as slavery and rape. However, because war is an evil act unto itself (regardless of the circumstances), nobody is really the 'good' guy. Everyone is involved in the brutalization of races, the hatred of peoples and the pillaging of cultures. And to think this could have all been avoided if TSR had made DnD less battle oriented and more role playing oriented, particularly in 3rd Edition (which is so unbelievably munchkin I want to hurl.... excuse me, I'll clean that up). Tut tut, silly munchkins.

Clarification- the munchkins I allude to are not the small people in Wizard of Oz, but rather those presented in the Munchkin's Guide to Powergaming.  They might be better known as powergamers, tweaks, min-maxers etc.

Edit: Added clarification
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Imrahil on June 19, 2004, 09:28:11 PM
I'm asking who considers drow and red dragons inherently evil--rather than culturally evil. Someone who's never heard of Drizzt, I presume?

As I said... "Certain lone exceptions aside..."

Quote
I'll put it more directly, if you like:
"Inherently evil" is a load of immoral hogwash. Certain (low-quality) works of fiction use it, but in decent fiction, as in reality, villains need reasons to be villains beyond "because they are."

Again, as I said... "I think some races *are considered* inherently Evil..." Whether or not they actually are inherently Evil is beside the point (even Sola's not sure if the Drow are inherently Evil or if it's a case of nurture vs. nature). The general populace, when told of a nearby settlement of Drow, Illithid, Beholders, etc., would react with fear of being killed, enslaved, eaten, etc. Some races have a (deserved) reputation for being Evil, because they consistently commit Evil acts.

- Imrahil
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Lord Kain on June 20, 2004, 08:31:54 PM
Drow are not inherently evil. If you take a infant drow and have it raised by high elves. It has just a good a chance at becoming evil as the next elf.
The socially evil races have there god to blame.
The Orc god is evil thus most orcs become evil.

Drow are evil because they follow Loith.



inherently evil creatures such as red dragons are often born intelligent. A newborn dragon can already speak a few languages.

No one has a clue how a Mind Flayer is born. They may be socially or inherently evil. How every the do feed of the brains of sentient creatures so that leds to evil.

In D&D we need inherently and heavily social evil creatures.
Its good for role-playing. For instance the party sides with the secretly evil Baron because they won't believe the words of a Drow who unknown to them is actually good. It should be noted that there a dozen ways to block the detect evil spell.

In a dragonlance campaign I was in the party was shocked to meet the worlds only Lawful Good Red Dragon.

Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 21, 2004, 02:42:05 AM
Quote
...Mind Flayer... They may be socially or inherently evil. How every the do feed of the brains of sentient creatures so that leds to evil.
Vegans would agree to that.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: nurgles_herald on June 21, 2004, 07:51:48 AM
"Inherently evil" is a load of immoral hogwash. Certain (low-quality) works of fiction use it, but in decent fiction, as in reality, villains need reasons to be villains beyond "because they are."

You're absolutely right, Kish. However, is it ever revealed why Sauron is so extremely, nastily evil (I know they touch on this in the Simarillion, but I haven't worked up the energy to go out and read it)? The 'god/ess' explanation to racial alignment is just an easy way of explaining the world. However, like most easy ways, it is not as accurate as it could be. Personally, I think that certain races are considered inherently good or evil simply because it makes DnD black and white. It's much easier to pick fights, gain levels, grab experience and kill stuff if you are playing in a black and white world, rather than a world with shades of gray and (horrors!) colors. Personally, I think there are just inherintly evil races because DnD in its most classical sense (particularly in 3rd Edition, silly munchkins) is just a game about commiting genocide and feeling good about it. Thank my DM for encouraging good roleplaying and smiting munchkins horribly whenever they rear their ugly heads. Stupid munchkins.

Clarification- In one of my other posts, I clarified the same munchkin statement. These are not the small people from Wizard of Oz. These are the freaks depicted in the Munchkin's Guide to Powergaming.

Edit: added a question mark...  :P
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Aristothenes on June 21, 2004, 11:47:53 AM
Just some questions about Virtue:
Visualise a number band -2 -1 x 1 2
Now, your conceptual starting virtue is x. Does your starting virtue depend on your alignment, and does it change _IN VALUE_ depending upon whether you are Chaotic, Neutral or Lawful Good to begin with?
And does a Lawful Good person -> Lawful Evil upon 1 bad act, or Neutral Good upon 1 bad act?
And if you're Chaotic Good, -> Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil upon 1 bad act...?

The mod sounds good, but I've a few evil things in mind (taking all 3 underdark lairs - hey we got to be prepared for the Five, right?) and taking out Belmin Gergas (the weirdo at the Promenade) and (if characters react to quickly)..that scimitar throwing dude (al alaffiff or whatever) if he can't get away in time...

If i decide to kill/just seal off Demogorgon, any difference in Virtue? as in Up or Down?

And does abandoning NPCs mean leaving the pocket plane with Sarevok still inside as you left SOA with 5 NPCS (your party is full?)

Or does that mean you leave Imoen to fend for herself in Spellhold as your party is full/you leave someone else behind in Spellhold to take Imoen?

In either case..virtue Up or Down? or unaffected?

(This mod kind of scares me). Thanks in advance for your replies.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 21, 2004, 11:57:00 AM
Just some questions about Virtue:
Visualise a number band -2 -1 x 1 2
Now, your conceptual starting virtue is x. Does your starting virtue depend on your alignment, and does it change _IN VALUE_ depending upon whether you are Chaotic, Neutral or Lawful Good to begin with?
And does a Lawful Good person -> Lawful Evil upon 1 bad act, or Neutral Good upon 1 bad act?
And if you're Chaotic Good, -> Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil upon 1 bad act...?
Lawful is not "more good" than Chaotic.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Aristothenes on June 21, 2004, 12:33:18 PM
That's just great.
So from Clint Eastwood, you become Pedro Alonzo Lopez....with 1 single bad act...?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 21, 2004, 12:35:50 PM
There's a difference between becoming evil and a paladin falling. Reynald is fallen, but not evil.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 21, 2004, 12:46:20 PM
That's just great.
So from Clint Eastwood, you become Pedro Alonzo Lopez....with 1 single bad act...?
English, please.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 21, 2004, 01:02:05 PM
However, is it ever revealed why Sauron is so extremely, nastily evil ..?
Just how it should be, by choice. He was one of the commanders for Melkor in the ages before the War of the Rings, but he is a Maiar like Gandalf and Saruman. Being evil is a conscious choice not an inheritage.


Sidenote: There should be a Virtue drop for leaving the now reborn Sarevok in the PPL to die when it collapses just like in the Minsc/Jaheira situation. I would not dare to guess Clint's alignment.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Aristothenes on June 21, 2004, 01:10:16 PM
Pedro Alonzo Lopez - Mass singular killer (in other words 1/2/3 kills/day over a period of a few years). Recently caught and sent to jail. 'Killer of the Andes'. Victims mostly young girls. Troubled childhood, jailed at 18. The world's worst serial killer.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 21, 2004, 01:14:03 PM
My answer remains the same.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Aristothenes on June 21, 2004, 01:35:05 PM
Then can I have some answers to these please?
1.The mod sounds good, but I've a few evil things in mind (taking all 3 underdark lairs - hey we got to be prepared for the Five, right?) and taking out Belmin Gergas (the weirdo at the Promenade) and (if characters react to quickly)..that scimitar throwing dude (al alaffiff or whatever) if he can't get away in time...

2.If i decide to kill/just seal off Demogorgon, any difference in Virtue? as in Up or Down?

3.And does abandoning NPCs mean leaving the pocket plane with Sarevok still inside as you left SOA with 5 NPCS (your party is full?)

4.Or does that mean you leave Imoen to fend for herself in Spellhold as your party is full/you leave someone else behind in Spellhold to take Imoen?

In either case..virtue Up or Down? or unaffected?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 21, 2004, 01:38:07 PM
1.The mod sounds good, but I've a few evil things in mind (taking all 3 underdark lairs - hey we got to be prepared for the Five, right?) and taking out Belmin Gergas (the weirdo at the Promenade) and (if characters react to quickly)..that scimitar throwing dude (al alaffiff or whatever) if he can't get away in time...
That's not a question. But they'll lower your virtue.

Quote
2.If i decide to kill/just seal off Demogorgon, any difference in Virtue? as in Up or Down?
No. But getting Odren killed intentionally lowers it.

Quote
3.And does abandoning NPCs mean leaving the pocket plane with Sarevok still inside as you left SOA with 5 NPCS (your party is full?)

4.Or does that mean you leave Imoen to fend for herself in Spellhold as your party is full/you leave someone else behind in Spellhold to take Imoen?

In either case..virtue Up or Down? or unaffected?
You have to take Imoen or refuse her with a better excuse than "I don't like you" to avoid a Virtue drop. This is currently sub-optimal, and Quest Pack will make it rather better.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Aristothenes on June 21, 2004, 01:54:01 PM
Last post for today. Thanks for your answers SimDingo. This is a technical question.
If I've downloaded all the finished mods from pocketplane.net
and spellholdstudios.net
and others,

Which do I install first?
All the WeiDU mods say they should be the last...?

Is there a guide somewhere which can tell me which goes first? PPG or FW?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Imrahil on June 21, 2004, 09:58:05 PM
As for the Mae'Var quest I doubt any lawful person would kill a CW just becaus an evil RW told them. There even is a way of completing the quest for good people - kill edwin.

After giving this some thought, I really don't see the difference between killing Reyic & killing Edwin. If anything (& again I'll say that I'd prefer to see a non-violent way of confronting Reyic implemented), just up & killing Edwin seems like a very non-Good way of handling the situation.

- Imrahil
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Lord Kain on June 22, 2004, 03:04:14 PM
 The only reason you HAVE to kill Reyic is if you want Edwin in the party for is wizard skills or more importantly for the edwina event. You can always kill edwin when he attacks you for the key.

After all, you refuse to murder for him. He attacks you for it so its self defense.

But you shouldn't lose virtue for it. Why should paladins be denyed the pleasure of Edwina.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Ruben on June 22, 2004, 09:03:35 PM
Ah as far as I know Edwin is evil. A Paladin theorically shouldn't even be associating with anyone evil. I've heard enough Paladin rehotoric to know that. If you want Edwina, don't play a Paladin. Or don't use Virture eitherway.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Lord Kain on June 23, 2004, 08:50:07 PM
yes a paladin shouldn't ally with edwin. But then Baldur's Gate 2 doesn't make that restriction.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Ruben on June 23, 2004, 08:57:21 PM
Just because you can, does that mean you should?

The Virture Mod is about Roleplaying and adding depth a characters actions. If a Paladin was told to kill somone by some mage and goes and does it then a Paladin deserves to fall.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SixOfSpades on June 24, 2004, 12:24:06 AM
So, if I play a Mage and tell Keldorn to come help me kill Irenicus, he should angrily kick me out of the building? Even if my PC is of Evil alignment, whacking Irenicus will still be a Good thing.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 24, 2004, 12:42:25 AM
Well, actually...if your PC's Virtue is low enough to qualify for Evil alignment, Keldorn will, sooner or later, attack him/her.  In roleplaying terms, the "proper" course of action for Keldorn would be not to actually swear to serve an evil mage to defeat another evil mage, but rather to learn all he can about Irenicus from you, leave your corpse on the floor of the sewers, and gather a group of his own to hunt down this Irenicus.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: BobTokyo on June 24, 2004, 12:43:29 AM
So, if I play a Mage and tell Keldorn to come help me kill Irenicus, he should angrily kick me out of the building? Even if my PC is of Evil alignment, whacking Irenicus will still be a Good thing.

Keldorn fought beside you to destroy the CUlt of the Eyeless (unless you refused to have him). He has some reason to trust you. That's different from a Paladin taking an order from a Mage that he knows to be Evil. Of course, a Paladin shouldn't be working for or with the thieves guild at all, but that's BG2 for you.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Mongoose87 on June 24, 2004, 03:59:33 PM
I'm pretty certain he'll stay with you whether you go after the cult or not
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: BobTokyo on June 24, 2004, 08:37:10 PM
I'm pretty certain he'll stay with you whether you go after the cult or not

True, he will, but he shouldn't. :) Again, that's BG2 for you; a Paladin sworn to investigate the disapearances above who knows for a fact that there is a source of great evil through a door 20 paces away, and even a Chaotic Evil CHARNAME with an INT and CHA of 3 can talk him into walking away to go rob private homes. Odd game.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Imrahil on June 25, 2004, 02:19:56 PM
Just because you can, does that mean you should?

The Virture Mod is about Roleplaying and adding depth a characters actions. If a Paladin was told to kill somone by some mage and goes and does it then a Paladin deserves to fall.

Once again I think it comes back to the question of "Does the person asking make a difference?" What if the Paladin was "told to kill someone" by Sir Ryan Trawl or Adalon? Is it just as Evil to attack the Fallen Paladins as it to attack Reyic? Would we even be debating the Virtue of attacking the Beholders if Adalon was the one who asked the party to do it?

Which of these 3 situations should require a Virtue hit (I'm not assuming a Paladin in these examples, but I am assuming a non-Evil PC)?
1 - The PC is told of a nearby Cowled Wizard. The PC invades his home & confronts him, hoping to learn about Imoen's whereabouts. The CW is uncooperative & a fight ensues, resulting in the CW's death.
2 - The PC is asked by Edwin to attack a nearby Cowled Wizard. Both Edwin & the Cowled Wizard are Evil, & the CW's arrested Imoen, so the PC does as Edwin requests, attacking & killing the CW, hoping to either discover something about Imoen or enlist the aid of the Shadow Thieves in locating her.
3 - The Priests of Lathander are tired of the Cowled Wizards' reign of terror & are concerned that the Wizards will attack them in the very near future. They ask the PC to perform a pre-emptive strike on the Cowled Wizards by taking out one of their members. The PC does so, resulting in the death of the CW.

Which, if any, of these are Evil?

- Imrahil
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: BobTokyo on June 25, 2004, 03:54:31 PM
#1 and #2 certainly require a virtue hit. In number 1 you break into the home of someone who has done you no direct harm and who has only harmed you indirectly through association then kill him. In number two you obey a command to commit murder given by a criminal. #3 I'm less sure of; as Lawful characters the Priests of Lathander should not be ordering first strikes against what is effectively an arm of the city government. If the situation is that severe, then it might be possible to do this without a virtue hit.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Kish on June 25, 2004, 04:14:33 PM
Priests of Lathander are no more likely to be Lawful than Chaotic.  Lathander is Neutral Good.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: neriana on June 25, 2004, 04:21:55 PM
I don't think #1 should take a Virtue hit. I don't think any of them should take a Virtue hit, actually.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on June 25, 2004, 04:45:43 PM
#1 is not specific enough. "The wizard doesn't decide to tell you where she is, so you kill him" is not a justifiable explanation. "The wizard gets angry at your questions and attacks" is.

#2: All else set aside, you're murdering Rayic without any real indication of him having done anything particularly evil.

#3: Pre-emptive strike in anticipation of what? If the Cowled Wizards are planning to wipe out the Temple of Lathander, than that's fair enough. If there's a rumour going round that one of the cowled wizards might be going to steal a temple acolyte's girlfriend, that's slaughtering them all in advance isn't so good.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: BobTokyo on June 25, 2004, 05:50:59 PM
Priests of Lathander are no more likely to be Lawful than Chaotic. Lathander is Neutral Good.

My mistake; for some reason I thought that Lathander was a Lawful Good power.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: jester on June 26, 2004, 01:53:18 PM
The CWs are by no means a secret organization (being secretive is another issue) but rather a ruling faction in the city like the council of the six of which we do not know how many are members of the CWs. I think they could be more seen as the LAPD (by most not perceived as particularily LG at times). It is the law in Amn. They are law enforcement not just a sect.

Besides:
Number one is wrong: You do not question and kill the CW in Umar Hills. Why? It would be much easier to get answers from someone far away from the city and the shelter of his organization. However you play the story. There is an option to apologize and leave immediately. Rayic surely has a sign on his door that says 'Tresspassers wil be fireballed!'.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on August 21, 2004, 09:22:22 AM
Or let's consider the Temple District. Go Pickpocketing in the Temple of Helm, get caught at it, and seven people see you--and you take a Virtue hit for each one of them. So the message here is that robbing a lone person in the woods is more "virtuous" than robbing someone in a crowd? If anything, it's Reputation that should suffer relative to the number of witnesses.
I can't seem to reproduce this issue. In may game, it's reputation that suffers. Can anyone else confirm?
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Reverendratbastard on October 12, 2004, 04:04:48 PM
sobering bite for the day (or lifetime):

Quote from: jester
Why should everybody else care that you are a soulless spawn of a human god.
   thanks. ;D


  glad i showed up a few months late, or this one'd be more like 8 pages.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on October 12, 2004, 04:09:07 PM
Discussion isn't closed, if you've got any comments that haven't already been addressed.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Reverendratbastard on October 12, 2004, 04:45:24 PM

 thanks for the clarif.
 hmm, i'll go back through it later, but mostly i think i just wanted to argue.  ;)
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Quitch on October 23, 2004, 03:35:57 AM
Does virtue still not take itself into account when changing?  Currently it's possible to commit ten minor transgressions, lowering yourself to 1.  So, say ten pick pockets (or whatever minor things you can lose virtue for) would make you worse than someone who slaughtered all the slave children?

That's not right, and it certainly isn't roleplaying.

Virtue should be capped at certain points.  Virtue of 8?  You can't lose virtue for doing X since you've already reached a level associated with someone who does that.  If I can hit 1 without slaughtering towns, something is dreadfully wrong.  Likewise, if I can reach 20 without sacrificing everything I care for in this world, then again, that's not right.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: SimDing0 on October 23, 2004, 04:51:26 AM
You're right, that's how it should work, and I guess I will finish implementing that soon. It's very awkward to implement using WeiDU though, in dialogue particularly.

An alternative might be to say that if your Virtue is below 7, Virtue drops are all scaled down by 1, so your Virtue dropping by 1 does nothing, dropping by 2 actually decreases it by 1, and so on. It'd work similarly for high Virtue. This'd be far easier to code than individual handling for each event, but I'm not sure how well it'd work.
Title: Re: Virtue goes up too much!
Post by: Quitch on October 23, 2004, 10:09:05 AM
You should consider the reverse as well.  As you fall deeper into darkness, shouldn't it be harder to crawl out of your pit?  Of course, a fall from grace should be easy as ever :)