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Topic Summary

Posted by: Murdane
« on: January 15, 2005, 06:08:03 PM »

Gont wasn't a madman though, just a bit disoriented when you first free him. :)  The madmen that you end up freeing you have to kill anyway, because they attack you.
Posted by: Ebon
« on: January 15, 2005, 10:07:04 AM »

You've got nothing but their word that Saemon stole it from them. For all you know, he could've got it from its rightful owner and the Githyanki could just be thieves.
Considering what you know of Saemon and the person whom he says gave it to him (Bodhi), a party of nobodies would be paragons of truth in comparison. Unless, of course, you've taken the ship from Spellhold and you know what Githyanki do.

Question: Do you even get the Blade at all if you take the portal? It's been so long since I've gone that route that I forget.
Just regarding a little that topic, keeping the Blade should incur a virtue hit, because:
a) the one who gave it to you, Saemon, is (from all you know) a untrustworthy scoundrel who probably wanted to get rid of it;
b) the Githyanki requested the blade back about 3 times, from all places - clearly it belongs to them (somehow). If they attack you, then that's because of their warlike nature;
c) keeping the blade is greed, because by that time you get lots of magic items and it comes as a free gift anyway. You know it's the right blade, thanks to the Item Description Scroll anyway;
Since they were appearing everywhere for their blade, without attacking me outright, I was sure I owed them the artifact.

I just freed Gont of Riativin from the imprisonment orb thing in the Underdark, and let him go without a fight. If there's a virtue hit for killing him, why not a virtue gain for sparing him?

I'd also like to propose that killing any innocent person would incur the same penalty, whether that be Joe Schmoe commoner, Drizzt T. Heroman, or an ungrateful jerk you meet in a big cave.

I don't know if freeing any madman should be virtuous UNLESS that madman actually suffered/was cast upon and went mad at everyone (similar to Brage from BG1).
Posted by: Murdane
« on: January 14, 2005, 08:48:45 PM »



I'd also like to propose that killing any innocent person would incur the same penalty, whether that be Joe Schmoe commoner, Drizzt T. Heroman, or an ungrateful jerk you meet in a big cave.

I agree completely.
Posted by: Ghreyfain
« on: January 14, 2005, 01:09:55 PM »

I just freed Gont of Riativin from the imprisonment orb thing in the Underdark, and let him go without a fight.  If there's a virtue hit for killing him, why not a virtue gain for sparing him?

I'd also like to propose that killing any innocent person would incur the same penalty, whether that be Joe Schmoe commoner, Drizzt T. Heroman, or an ungrateful jerk you meet in a big cave.
Posted by: Murdane
« on: January 13, 2005, 05:52:55 PM »



Justice is just one of many virtues, and it seems to me that it is *lawful* good characters who would place the highest premium on it. I could easily imagine a CG character balancing it against compassion, support for liberty, mercy, etc., and finding it less important.


Yeah, but rangers are more often NG and CG than LG, and the game still wants them to give back the necklace free of charge (or you don't get exp, from what I've read). :)

But the very fact that you don't know what the PCs intentions are should already mean there shouldn't be a virtue penalty or increase, I would agree.  I was against the gratuitous, inconsistent alignment shifts back in NWN: SoU and HotU, and I'm still against them now.
Posted by: belboz
« on: January 13, 2005, 01:55:25 PM »

It's true that the Githyanki are evil, but what I've mentioned in many of my posts (and what Ghreyfain also mentioned in this very thread) is the idea that a virtuous person will, within reason, treat other creatures as justly as possible even though they are "evil" or "don't deserve it".

Justice is just one of many virtues, and it seems to me that it is *lawful* good characters who would place the highest premium on it. I could easily imagine a CG character balancing it against compassion, support for liberty, mercy, etc., and finding it less important.
Posted by: Andyr
« on: January 13, 2005, 11:53:20 AM »

I would imagine that most of them would venerate Mask, yeh, rather than Cyric.
Posted by: SimDing0
« on: January 13, 2005, 09:19:54 AM »

Cyric and Mask, NiGHTMARE seemed to indicate were the two factions of priests among them. I don't think that all Shadow Thieves are Cyricists by any measure though.
Posted by: Andyr
« on: January 13, 2005, 08:42:57 AM »

I don't think that the Shadow Thieves are Cyricists.
Posted by: Aristothenes
« on: January 13, 2005, 05:11:03 AM »

Looking back at BG2 (and after reading the many pnp books) both the Thieves' Guild and Bodhi don't make sense, unless you side with Bodhi first and then kill her at end.
Afterall, Thieves' Guild are Cyricists, and you're a child of Bhaal.
Of course, there is the little saying "Good doesn't mean stupid", and "Good doesn't mean well-mannered".
Posted by: Murdane
« on: January 11, 2005, 06:13:18 PM »

That wasn't what I was trying to say...

I used stealing as an example because the Githyanki situation involves the PC having something (not stolen, but you have it and can give it back), and the beings who are most likely the rightful owners asking for it back.

The closest other example I can think of it the first quest for the Ranger stronghold. The ranger PC digs up a small amount of mithral (or adamantine? don't remember which) and you can charge the rightful owner of the cache money for having found it for him. However, the game seems to suggest subtly that giving it back to that Lord without charge--for the simply reason that it's his--is the right thing to do. Maybe a greedier ranger just wants to give the money to the poor, but the game certainly doesn't assume that. It's true that the Githyanki are evil, but what I've mentioned in many of my posts (and what Ghreyfain also mentioned in this very thread) is the idea that a virtuous person will, within reason, treat other creatures as justly as possible even though they are "evil" or "don't deserve it".
Posted by: belboz
« on: January 11, 2005, 04:08:16 PM »

It's been a long, long time since I looked at the Player's Handbook, but wasn't a Robin-Hood-type "steals from corrupt nobles and gives the proceeds to the poor" character the actual example they used of CG alignment? I definitely don't think you can class all stealing as evil in the game. For all the game knows, you cast Know Alignment on the Githyanki and plan to sell the sword and donate the proceeds to Lathander (I assume it's not possible to track that sort of thing), or give them all to Athkatlan beggars, which strikes me as a deeply chaotic action, but not en evil one.
Posted by: SixOfSpades
« on: January 10, 2005, 12:43:21 PM »

You've got nothing but their word that Saemon stole it from them. For all you know, he could've got it from its rightful owner and the Githyanki could just be thieves.
Considering what you know of Saemon and the person whom he says gave it to him (Bodhi), a party of nobodies would be paragons of truth in comparison. Unless, of course, you've taken the ship from Spellhold and you know what Githyanki do.

Question: Do you even get the Blade at all if you take the portal? It's been so long since I've gone that route that I forget.
Posted by: Ghreyfain
« on: January 10, 2005, 11:06:50 AM »

Then I guess you have to take them on their word.  Sucks being good, doesn't it?
Posted by: Andyr
« on: January 10, 2005, 10:59:12 AM »

At that point in the game you might just have a blade. You might not know it is the blade for a +3 vorpal sword.

You've got nothing but their word that Saemon stole it from them. For all you know, he could've got it from its rightful owner and the Githyanki could just be thieves.