Thoughts on interjections

[theacefes]

Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad to address the "8000 + Interjections for your NPC isn't always a good thing?" topic as long as we're on this particular subject matter? I can't express enough how boring it is when an NPC interjects 5 or 6 times more per conversation (with anyone) than all the Bioware NPCs combined? At that point, why bother taking anyone else with you, unless one likes the suspense of "Hmmm...will he/she interject this time?! Will Viconia finally get a word in?!" 

[Kulyok]

This is a very interesting topic, I agree - if there's interest, I'll split it into a separate branch.

I myself like "many interjections" route. That's how I am building IWD NPC, for one: nearly every dialogue file has at least one interjection from the cast(again, from one of them or more). I'd like Bioware 16 in BG2 to have more interjections, as well - I was very happy when I finally installed "More Interjections" from BG2 Tweaks and found out how much my party members really had to say.

[theacefes]

I agree...I wish the Bioware 16 were more chatty as well....unfortunately, even with Tweaks, they're not up to speed with some of the interjection monsters that are released and/or in development. Nothing wrong with a talkative NPC, but I guess my issue with them is that it doesn't allow the NPC to blend more seamlessly with the game (if there is such a thing).

*wants IWD NPC*

It'll be great for IWD NPC though, as all the NPC will have a fairly even amount of interjections, yes?

[jcompton]

At that point, why bother taking anyone else with you, unless one likes the suspense of "Hmmm...will he/she interject this time?! Will Viconia finally get a word in?!" 

In fairness, part of the issue here is the nature of the INTERJECT family. It puts the new transition at the bottom of the list, making it the one which will be chosen--and that means the mod NPC will "beat" the BioNPCs to the interjecting punch every time, unless the modder deliberately uses EXTEND_BOTTOM #x, which of course is a pain in the neck. So it may make one NPC's interjections simply look a lot more prevalent even if there aren't significantly more than any other NPC.

[jastey]

At that point, why bother taking anyone else with you, unless one likes the suspense of "Hmmm...will he/she interject this time?! Will Viconia finally get a word in?!" 

Do you mean INTERJECT or I_C_T? because for the latter, it might be the mod-NPC talking first, but all original interjections will be performed after that. As for INTERJECT (which should be only scarcely used anyhow, since it cuts original and other mod's reactions) I never saw an NPC mod with a lot of them. I guess Ajantis will be one with many, in comparison, since as a paladin he does react to some situations (in accordance to Keldorn and Mazzy, btw.)

[Kulyok]

I think it's INTERJECT_COPY_TRANS, that is, I_C_T.

"should be scarcely used anyhow" and "Ajantis will be one with many" sounds suspiciously like double standards. Okay, kidding: as long as it doesn't break anything, it should be fine... but that's the problem with INTERJECT without COPY_TRANS, isn't it? Because it CAN potentially break things: if a state is used by another quest, if it is a crucial point for another mod, and so on and so forth.

The only exception possibly being BODHIAMB, since allowing her to kidnap one, and only one romance interest, and then to disappear seems to be a well-known and established tradition. (But even then, there's Weimer's Solaufein.)

[jastey]

"should be scarcely used anyhow" and "Ajantis will be one with many" sounds suspiciously like double standards.

Yes and no: Yes, because I seem to be doing something I don't want to have in other mods, no, because
A) Ajantis interjects as a paladin where Keldorn and Mazzy do it, too (Ajantis only if the two are not doing it first)
B ) Ajantis is a paladin, so if your PC wants to behave in a way a paladin sees the need to interfere maybe he is not the right companion
C) Ajantis is a paladin, so for realism reason I can't let him stand there idle if the PC lies / doesn't free a captured persons standing in front of him / rejects help because he is in a bad mood.
The moments he will interfere are all predictable and result from his class. There is no "I change the game flow because I am cool" INTERJECT, which is a big difference.

I do not want to see rogue/fighter/mage NPC XY INTERJECT and change dialogue flow in every second dialogue, as there would be no reason.

(This is actually a good thing for the mod FAQ..)

[berelinde]

But wouldn't a determined, dedicated rogue, committed to the ways of vice, object just as vehemently to acts that promote lawful behavior? A person could argue that Cleo, the avowed anarchist and scofflaw, might be just as entitled to INTERJECT where causes that go against Cleo's personal ethics (or lack of them) are concerned.

Sorry, Jastey, we don't usually disagree, but I'm not sure I'm with you on this one, although I'd be unlikely to see any of those INTERJECTs in my own game because I usually play morally upright PCs.

I'm not going to tell anyone else how they should do it, but I'm probably just going to have even my most fanatical NPCs I_C_T, saying that they are against an action. If the action doesn't currently have a "bail out," or a way to reverse a decision that my NPC wouldn't like, I might give it one with an EXTEND_BOTTOM, or an INTERJECT followed by COPY_TRANS once the choices are given, possibly with a warning that my NPC might leave the party if a certain course is pursued. If the PC does it anyway, well, he was warned.

As for the number of interjections of any flavor, the best thing to do is run through the mod completely before release, and have other testers do the same, and note the interjection frequency. If it seems like too much, scale it back. Also, there's nothing wrong with asking for feedback if you're a modder, and then making the changes that players suggest.

It's funny, though. I might estimate that some NPCs have way too many interjections and others way too few, when they might actually have the same number. The nature of the interjections, and the spacing, also figure into the equation, as does the personality of the NPC. If I recruit a paladin, I'd be surprised if he stood silent during the thieves' guild quests, although I might prefer he just grumble about it and let me get on with it.

[jastey]

A paladin falls if he does something wrong. If he is allied with the PC and the PC makes an evil decision, he will fall.
This is the reason I can't mod a paladin that will leave all RP decisions to the PC and stay. Either INTERJECT, or leave. As for INTERJECT for Ajantis, I had a look at Keldorn's and Mazzy's reactions to certain quests and adjusted Ajantis'.
This is also the reason why I say a non-paladin (ranger, I think too) doesn't have a reason to INTERJECT. He might have a strong personal opinion, but no reason.

Don't think I want to contradict you, I agree to some extend to what you have written. It's my personal view that I think this is a special thing for paladins. I am thinking about tuning the number of INTERJECTs down, but that will mean Ajantis will leave more often (and if only because he is unhappy with the overall leading style of the PC).

[theacefes]

At that point, why bother taking anyone else with you, unless one likes the suspense of "Hmmm...will he/she interject this time?! Will Viconia finally get a word in?!" 

In fairness, part of the issue here is the nature of the INTERJECT family. It puts the new transition at the bottom of the list, making it the one which will be chosen--and that means the mod NPC will "beat" the BioNPCs to the interjecting punch every time, unless the modder deliberately uses EXTEND_BOTTOM #x, which of course is a pain in the neck. So it may make one NPC's interjections simply look a lot more prevalent even if there aren't significantly more than any other NPC.

True. Perhaps it's just the way it gets presented during the course of a game? *shrugs* I see the other interjections from the other NPCs come after the "mod" NPC of course, but there are, of course, the many incident where I'll be playing a mod NPC/beta/alpha/omega v.09573 version and he/she will interject at dialogues  that seems to just be...too much? Maybe I'm not describing it correctly.  Basically, if I am the PC, and I am traveling with my party, it seems odd that I've got 4 people in my party who say their bit every now and then and then this fifth person who has to put their two cents after every line in the game? (Okay a bit of exaggeration, but does that make more sense?)



 

[Kulyok]

I think it depends on the direction you are going to choose: giving or taking away.

For example, five years ago no NPCs, Bioware or modded, had player-initiated dialogue. Then came Kelsey with his flirts and Tashia with her riddles. There was a striking contrast - how come, Kelsey had flirts and other NPCs didn't! - and there were two ways to solve it: to take Kelsey's player-initiated dialogue out or to add player-initiated dialogue to other characters. Now every or nearly every romance mod out there has a flirt pack, and, man, isn't it cool.

I think it's the same for interjections: you want some, you take some out or add some via Interjections, NPC IEP or whatever have you.

More or less equal numbers are important, I think - even if a character is a hopeless introvert/a strong and silent type, he, too, got to have his moments. Bioware, unfortunately, wasn't blameless in this respect, either: take Imoen in chapter 6(why, why did she have to survive Spellhold?), or Cernd in any chapter. It's all in   our   your   well, somebody's, anyway   hands.

[theacefes]

Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. 

[jastey]

(Okay a bit of exaggeration, but does that make more sense?)

Definitely. I was only nitpicking on what you were saying.

I agree with Kulyok, but I also can imagine that in the game you might be playing right now, this doesn't help much. (And I am looking foreward to receiving feedback concerning Ajantis interjections.)

[the bigg]

take Imoen in chapter 6(why, why did she have to survive Spellhold?)

possible SPOILER for possible future UB material
She is talk-impaired because Bioware decided at the last moment to save her, the plan was that you would have had to face her as the slayer in Spellhold and the Ravager in Suld.*. Given that just at the last moment she was to become a party member, she didn't have enough dev time to not turn out as shy as she appears.

Of course, the UB member that restores that will get a visit from me and a chainsaw.

[Kulyok]

Hey, we're long-time Attic members, so we're supposed to know that.

It's strange, by the way, that Mirrabbo didn't give her more interjections in his Imoen Romance(though many new, varied dialogue options became available - I shudder to think of what ToB will bring). I mean, it's the cheapest and fastest way to make a character more(or less) endearing, and certainly more alive.

[the bigg]

It's strange, by the way, that Mirrabbo didn't give her more interjections in his Imoen Romance(though many new, varied dialogue options became available - I shudder to think of what ToB will bring). I mean, it's the cheapest and fastest way to make a character more(or less) endearing, and certainly more alive.

Actually, IR interjects after the specific dialogue, rather than within. Which is a good thing, because most modders can't figure out that interjecting without a throwback looks very weird, especially with PC responses.

[Kulyok]

Actually, IR interjects after the specific dialogue, rather than within. Which is a good thing, because most modders can't figure out that interjecting without a throwback looks very weird, especially with PC responses.

Absolutely, yeah, I repeatedly nagged Domi about it in BG1 NPC, as well. (In IWD NPC, I add the character's reply in most cases, but always - if PC's responses follow after it).

[cmorgan]

At the risk of being slightly risque, I think perhaps Mirrabo had other... things... on his mind  

I am ok with chatty NPCs when it is asking about <CHARNAME> responses. I am not so cool with lots of "look at me, I have a backstory and I'm pretty" responses. And for Ajantis or Saerileth or a Paladin type (or any type, for that matter), I assume it would be self correcting by the player. I like Ajantis, and am not meaning criticism; but the first time Ajantis (BG1 NPC content) decided that I didn't have any choices about returning or not returning the ring by active interference, I was bristling. I was party leader, and here he was taking control - how dare he! Luckily, I was playing (as usual) a paladin, so it was all good - but if I had been playing an assassin, he would have been a dead dude. So the player who gets too annoyed with losing control with the situation simply boots the character and continues on without. That even makes sense, because if someone is going to bug you right before combat, he had better be like Edwin - hate his annoying squishy scheming little guts, but by the gods when you need a room cleaned, just let him loose. Everyone else can be replaced by several others (and now thanks to Nythrun, of any class/kit you want for your playstyle).

Kivan (BG/BG2), Xan (BG/BG2), Gavin(BG), Ajantis(BG) (when he isn't making my decisions for me ) - all seem like "heavy" commenters, but it doesn't tick me off. The materials fit, and make sense. I wish Keto would speak up more often in I_C_T, and I wish Taisha were true to her French roots and would comment (and get rather more intimate/steamy) much more often. So for the most part, I guess I would err on the side of more (but targeted at <CHARNAME> not the NPC). The show really is about PC, not the NPC.

[jastey]

Hehe, thank you for the feedback, so to say, cmorgan.

(I just went and counted the number of Ajantis BGII INTERJECTs, and came to the unbelievable and giant number of three.)

[the bigg]

<snip>

Have you played Weimer's Valen? Of course not, American play good parties and only Europeans have the guts to play evil parties  :devil:

PS: I am an exception to the rule

[cmorgan]

@Jastey - you do even less of it in BG1NPC - I think we have a grand total of three there, too!

@the bigg - I need to try it out for a good run Way too many runthroughs as a "goody two shoes" for me!

[jcompton]

Er, yeah, I was wrong about my INTERJECT generalization as I_C_T ensures you (generally) get "the mod NPC's plus the first BioNPC in the list." See, this is what happens when I try to post on mod forums like I remember what I'm talking about.

[jcompton]

BTW, is anybody going to sit down and do a rough comparison count (Bio xxxxJ.DLG length vs. instances of INTERJECT-family actions in a mod's .d code) of various mods and point out who's actually a standard deviation away from the norm, or are we going to keep talking about qualitative experiences and wondering if a "problem" really exists?

If there really is a surplus of interjections in some mods, I will haphazardly blame it on the following:

- The misguided notion that "If some is good, then more is better"
- Joss Whedon, for convincing people that all scifi/fantasy characters must glibly interrupt each other at every opportunity
- Modders putting more time into the interjects than Bioware did.

It's a difficult balance, because obviously the right interjection at the right time can do a lot for immersion, but there are also certainly times when a player would simply like to be left alone to make a damn decision and not be heckled about it by the peanut gallery.

As an aside, I've never completely accepted that explanation about Imoen. I mean, yes, I believe the whole "we didn't realize what we were getting into" thing well enough, but it's always seemed that the real reason they didn't bother going back was partially the time issue but partially the "well, hell, people will have done most of the quests before fetching her anyway, so who's gonna see it?" (Does Mazzy have any interjections about the Circus Quest, for instance?)

[cmorgan]

Not me. No statistical analysis - I still am trying to drag my brain kicking and screaming into being able to make technically compatible robust code. (Or even technically incompatible shamelessly copied pseudocode). And it would remind me I have not written an NPC myself. I really, really think your idea about it being subjective is on target.

I also think that between Spelling, Whedon, the SG1 folks, and Sorkin (Charmed, Firefly-etc., SG1/Atlantis, WestWing/SportsNight) not to mention the BBC productions like Coupliing, etc. the idea of an ensemble cast that always "chatters" in quick snappy

"So, what's that?"
"I don't know."
"Me neither"
"Well, that's 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back"
"C'mon, it wasn't *that* bad- "
"Who says?"
"Will everyone please just SHUT UP???"

has really locked in people's brains a bit. West Wing/SportsNight inspired the idea for those "everyone in the party banters at once" CHAIN structures I used in the IM 10 entry. I just expect that when a group of people are joshing around with eachother, just about everyone kicks in a quip or a line or two, mostly just a verbal chorus of support.

So my thought is that it is a subjective thing, not a frequency count, with mean, mode and standard deviation from the norm as a quantifiable test of "who goes too far". For me, Keto could talk every single time, and I'd be a happy man. Others, not so much.

[jastey]

@Jastey - you do even less of it in BG1NPC - I think we have a grand total of three there, too!

Really? I thought it was more. Let's put it like this: What is more important, to blend the NPC into the game (Ajantis interjects as does Keldorn), or compatibility and player's RP choice? I have to admit I am not too sure anymore.