Progress. No, really.

[jcompton]

Believe it or not, but primary coding on de'Arnise Romance started today, thanks to Kulyok. I have no ETA, and it probably won't include everything I ever promised or you ever dreamed, but we're getting it out.

[berelinde]

Hey, cool! Go, Nalia!

[jcompton]

I swear, some of this stuff was written by a mad genius hand I don't fully recognize anymore.

Let the player break off the Jaheira romance, then challenge Nalia to a duel to the death, in the same LT? Who does that sort of thing?

[Kulyok]

I think PC was truly channelling Anomen's spirit in this one.

[Aragorn II]

Yes!  I knew that this day would come soon.

[Daulmakan]

Huh? An inactive mod going active again? 

My thanks go to Kulyok for making JC work. 

[berelinde]

I suspect that JC is still up to his eyebrows in TBH and that Kulyok might be coding up already written material, but it's all good if I get to try Nalia.

Wonder if that would work for Surayah...

Now *there's* wishful thinking.

[Starcrunch]

Excellent, Nalia is one of my favorite NPC's and I'd love to see her developed more (and it'll be nice to have a a female human romance option).

-Starcrunch

[berelinde]

You know, I never liked Nalia. The reason, though, was more that she's not very well developed as an NPC. She is immature and very passionate about her cause, and that's as far as BioWare went with her. I'm interested in seeing how she'll develop as a character with more content.

[jester]

If I ever get to kill Nalia, my life will have meaning again.

Looking forward to the duel.

[Starcrunch]

She wasn't developed much as an NPC, but in some ways that was a good thing. I mean if BioWare had developed her further she'd probably have turned into a pointy eared divine spell caster (I like elves but really, couldn't we have one plain old normal human as a romance option for males!). I found her annoying at first but she did grow on me and I admire her young idealism* and sense of adventure. The biggest drag is that you never get to peer beyond the crusade into how Nalia developed these ideas, and to see what else she believes in. I've also like the idea of having an Amnish noble in the party who is more connected to the nobility than Anomen and Keldorn, whom, while nobles, are rather distant from mainstream nobility. Also I admit to liking Nalia's epilogue in ToB more than possibly any other NPC; she really does go on to great things, and it casts the PC in a warm light as being a formative influence on her. I see SoA and ToB as very educational for Nalia...

I think she wasn't rounded out too much because BioWare decided that Imoen would live... I like Imoen but I do think it would have been a nice plot point to have her die as intended.

*I believe very much, that as misguided as Nalia is at times, the very fact that she tries to do *something* speaks well of the woman she will become. She is willing to strive, take risks, make mistakes, and to be wrong (and to learn from it). In an early 20-something this is an enormous strength.

-Starcrunch

[berelinde]

(I like elves but really, couldn't we have one plain old normal human as a romance option for males!).

Amen!

Really! Why, oh why, can't human females have a bit of limelight?

<rant> Or humans, in general, for that matter. This is kind of a general rant of mine for BG2, but it seems like it's all about the elves. The protagonist is captured by Irenicus, a defrocked elf, is subjected to a series of tepid quests (run by humans, true, but they are distinctly lacklustre, with the possible exceptions of Garren Windspear, Lord Logan, Reynard, and Aran Linvale), your most dangerous adversary is Bodhi, an undead elf, and then you win SoA by saving an elven city and its supremely annoying queen from the defrocked elf who captured and tortured you. Along the way, you bump into a whole lot more elves, in the form of Elhan, Drizzt, Phaere, the Matron Mother, et al. It would really be cool to see a human with some good lines. </rant>

[AndrewRogue]

Wow. I think you just set back my next play of BG2. Thanks a lot. :p

No seriously though, I'm looking forward to it. I always wonder why Nalia wasn't better developed by Black Isle. I'm glad someone is doing it

[Ankhesenpaaten]

I suspect that JC is still up to his eyebrows in TBH and that Kulyok might be coding up already written material, but it's all good if I get to try Nalia.

Wonder if that would work for Surayah...

Now *there's* wishful thinking.

I was hoping for Cailean but Surayah woiuld be cool too!  I'm soooo glad Nalia is "alive" again.   

[Kulyok]

I'm interested in seeing how she'll develop as a character with more content.

Seeing how you uninstalled Kelsey first time he butted in on an Anomen lovetalk and haven't played it since, I think an unfair warning is in order: there are Catfights. Seriously. (And seriously good ones, too, but, seeing how you might not want to play it... )

[berelinde]

I'm OK with catfights, as long as they don't interrupt otherwise peaceful lovetalks. But yeah, if she's butting in on private lovetalks, I'm probably not going to like it.

Just to expand on that a bit, lest I come off sounding like an utter grouch, I don't mind adding another voice to the existing Aerie/Jaheira, Aerie/Viconia, Jaheira/Viconia, Aerie/Jaheira/Viconia spats, because they presumably happen in public, but I prefer to think that NPCs are not the kind of stalkers that hover within earshot every time the PC and another NPC step aside to have a private chat. Since there's no way to know which lovetalks are private, I use other NPC interjections as a benchmark. If another BioWare NPC interjects, it's public. If not, I'd be a lot happier if MyNPC stayed the hells out of it.

So, what *is* fair game? Anything where another BioWare NPC interjects, and any mod-added catfighting, whether the dialogue is initiated by the BioWare NPC or MyNPC. Given that Jaheira interjects into many of Aerie's lovetalks already, there's probably plenty of dialogues that are available.

[jcompton]

That is an interesting perspective.

I don't share it. When we're down to "psst hey wanna do it?" I agree that we're past the time for heckling, but other than that...

[AndrewRogue]

Mixed feelings on the whole issue. I definitely think sometimes it seems like some of the (even earlier chatter) would be conducted more privately and should be exempt from catfighting, but at the same time... I think there's plenty of room for heckling too. So... yeah. Totally mixed on the issue.

Either way, still dying to see the mod, and I'll probably be here everyday until its done, expressing my undying love and worship. Or at least checking to see if its ready. >_>

[jcompton]

Honestly, I don't see how this "rule" makes sense from any perspective other than that of a card-carrying Anomaniac and/or someone who doesn't grasp that the character development result of romance conflict is ultimately to show an ugly side of the NPC (and possibly of the PC and/or player for cheering them on, if applicable.) If you expressly don't believe your character has such a side (see Weimer, Westley) then you don't write the conflict dialogues.

This is pretty old news what with Kelsey being over five years old, but I can't see how anybody developing a romance for a female NPC could take seriously any restriction that makes Anomen's LTs sacrosanct. And, again, such a restriction misses the point entirely. These people are showing a jealous streak. They are being competitive. They are, in fact, listening in while another says, "I'm sorry, I spoke out of turn" or "which direction should we go?" or "did you hear about the time I slew all those giants?" or "can I show you something in a size 7? We carry wides as well..."

[berelinde]

Quoted from the same discussion on another forum.

Or it can be a question of "Does this interjection make the interjector look like he's so insecure or so jealous that he has to eavesdrop every time a rival speaks to the PC?"

It's up to your perception of the NPC in question. If you think Anomen's perceptive enough to realize that Darian is even a rival and that Anomen's quite that insecure, that jealous, and that much of a stalker, go for it. It makes Anomen look like he's got serious control issues, but that's your call. But making a BioWare NPC look bad isn't necessarily a way to make your NPC look good.

Since you are making this call about Xarana, though, it isn't so much a question of NPC insecurity/control issues, as even that can be overshadowed by the Sue factor. Yes, an NPC that constantly has to get the last word, or has to participate in every conversation could well earn that title. Not every modder realizes when he has crossed that line, and with Anomen as such an easy mark, it isn't tough. Given Xarana's opinionated personality, that's going to be a fine line to walk.

Is player perception "silly on its face?" That's up to you to decide.

There are players that *want* Anomen/Aerie/Jaheira to get slapped down at every turn. You'll read tons of posts by folks like Solar's Harper, who enjoy seeing Anomen mocked. But there are also tons of posts from folks that appreciate an NPC who make another NPC, even a rival, look good. Here's a recent one, if you doubt this. To the best of my knowlege, this poster has not shown signs of being an "Anomaniac" in other forum posts.

But it's all about balance and being true to the character of the NPCs you are writing. Balance, because you'll probably want to strike a balance between writing an NPC that is a more than just silent filler in the party and one that dominates the party, but also between Xarana interjections in other NPC dialogues and NPC interjections in hers. If she is free to interject into all the lovetalks, are her dialogues given equal treatment, or are they sacred communications that other NPCs do not touch? If you can't bear the thought of allowing BioWare NPCs their time in the spoptlight, must Xarana have it all to herself? Trueness to NPC character is also a bit tricky, since everyone has his or her own perceptions of the BioWare lot. The best you can do is try to be as objective as possible.

Edit: Yes, it's true that Kelsey is a five year old NPC. Popular opinion at the time definitely favored Anomen-bashing. One need not be an Anomen fan, or even an Anomen hater, to realize this. The guy certainly doesn't have many friends among mod-added NPCs, that's for sure. And he does have his faults!

As a player, I like to give my PC companions that he or she might want to befriend. Would he or she voluntarily befriend someone who put so much effort in making other people look bad? Or would he or she prefer to surround himself or herself with people who brought out the best in others?

As a modder, I do not consider it a fault to write romance conflicts that don't abuse the same tired old themes. Nor do I consider it a cop-out to write completely new conflict dialogues, rather than just piggy-back onto existing lovetalks. The lovetalks I write won't be free-for alls, so I don't see why the BioWare ones have to be. I can take the trouble to write some new ones, where the boys can duke it out to their hearts' content, and leave Anomen to sabotage his own romance by talking about his dysfunctional family or that time he killed 10 ogres bare-handed in peace. He does a better job of making himself look like an arrogant prat all by himself than I would by making Gavin (or another NPC, using Gavin as an example, here) cast snide remarks in his face at every turn.

But it's all up to the player to decide. Certainly Kelsey's download statistics and forum popularity would indicate that he's got a few friends out there.

[berelinde]

But it occurs to me that I'm doing it here, too. It's so easy to get distracted by a soapbox disucssion of modding theory that it's easy to overlook that the whole purpose of this thread is to talk about some exciting news about a previously dormant project.

So yay, progress!

[gertjanvh]

Serious? This is so cool! Excellent news I reregistered for this since the last time I visited these forums long ago.
It's nice to see btw that alot of the folk that visit Gibberlings3 also hang out here. Hi berelinde
Anyway, just keep up the great work!

[Kulyok]

So, first progress report(okay, okay, MY first progress report ):

All Nalia's SoA lovetalks have been coded and compiled! 4400 strings, and counting. It was the simplest part, though: testing and questing is ahead. Still, news is news.

[Evaine Dian]

Yay! 


And the more jealousy, interaction and romance conflicts, the merrier.

[jester]

Just make it so that not everytime I am about to kick a dragon's behind she wants to discuss the merits of spooning and every vampire sighting prompts her to sing hymns to eternal love. On the way I love all the bickering eh romance I can get. :-P