Any interest in IWD tutu?

[Andyr]

Good luck with it.

[FredSRichardson]

Good luck with it.

I'll see if I can follow through with any of this

It seems like it should be so easy.  The non-unique items and creatures in IWD1 "look" very similar to the ones in IWD2.  But I'm sure I have no idea what's really involved here (if it was easy, someone else would have done it).

So I guess I'll start by plowing through the iwg2 code and try to remember what it does.

IIRC, iwg2 mostly does translating of BG2 resources into the IWD2 sphere.  I might be able to do more "mapping" in this case (especially for the creatures).  Scripting is going to be a pain no matter what.

Well, I'll see if I can get one area converted over.  Should be interesting

[Drew]

I'd look at the BG Tutu code, also.  It won't be as directly applicable, but it worked.

[Andyr]

IWD1 one has some scripting commands not present in other IE games, which may cause some trouble--BigGlobal, for one. I think Sim figured out something about that.

[Idobek]

AFAIK all IWD1 scripting commands are present in IWD2. I think the only file format differences with chr and cre files, and you'd have to remap all the string refs. But aside from that lot you could probably drop the IWD1 resources straight into IWD2 without much hassle (relatively speaking).

[FredSRichardson]

Thank you for the tips!  This will be an interesting trip

I had to laugh at myself when I realized dual-wielding wasn't really possible in IWD1, I must not have known what that was when I played the game (it was the first IE game I ever played, so it has special sentimental value).  It's definitely the IWD2 IE engine features that would motivate me to try and do this

Wow, forgot how cool Dorn's Deep is!

[FredSRichardson]

Arg!  I can't seem to find the IWG2 source code.  I thought it was in the RAR files, but I don't see it there.  I'll search around a bit, but does anyone know where I can find the source for IWG2?

Thanks!

-Fred

[the bigg]

WeiDU contains the source for IWG2 - just run make weimorph to get iwg (or iwg2zip, but you have to edit the makefile a bit to correct references to cygwin and/or Weimer's customized directories).

[FredSRichardson]

WeiDU contains the source for IWG2 - just run make weimorph to get iwg (or iwg2zip, but you have to edit the makefile a bit to correct references to cygwin and/or Weimer's customized directories).

Yes! Thank you!  I just figured this out (again lol) before checking back here.  It's been quite a while, but my cygwin setup should work (and I believe I can downlload an optimizing version of the M$ compiler now for free so I shouldn't have to use MinGW again).

WARNING: entering rambling mode
I just started digging in a little.  It looks like the conver_are part should still work.  The ARE's in iwd1 (so far including how) look very similar to the ones in bg2 (including same version string).

I'm going to have to do more comparing between bg2 and iwd1/how to see what else might have changed there.

I was hoping to do something a little different than what iwg2 does.  It shouldn't be too difficult to map certain resources between iwd1 and iwd2.  As an example, the first area in both games (AR1000.ARE) both have goblins.  I should be able to adapt the IWD2 goblins to iwd1tutu goblins and do a different type of conversion.

Looking a bit further, there are definitely things I have to figure out.  The goblin scripting is a bit funky.  I see this TEAM_3 global and TEAM_3_BIT (engine parameter?) in one of the gobo scripts which looks like it might have something to do with "allegiance".  Is this a way of having groups of goblins attack ignoring the fog 'o war?  Nice idea if it is (it's too easy to exploit FoW in iwd1).  It looks like there's another scriptlet that avoids attacking regulars like REIG.  I almost forgot about IESDP (um, heh, that helps a bit).

Oooh, here's something.  Each actor seems to have an "IsTeamBitOn" trigger to check before applying "SetTeamBit".  I haven't found any documentation on these via Google, and they seem to be unique to IWD2 (according to Cirerrek's excellent spread sheet comparing these things), so I'm wondering if this is crucial to maintaining Allegiance info.  I don't see anything in iwg2 that handles the TeamBit stuff, so perhaps that explains the random hostility that would sometimes occur?

This could get interesting (or not ).  I realize I should just blog this (that way I can write it all down and no one has to read any of it!   ).

[Grog]

Yeah, just use IWD2's version of the goblin (i.e. change the CRE ref in the area file).  Don't even bother converting the CRE files.

[FredSRichardson]

Yeah, just use IWD2's version of the goblin (i.e. change the CRE ref in the area file).  Don't even bother converting the CRE files.

I think you're right.  I'm going to have to figure out how the TEAM stuff works (I beginning to think that's important).

Automating this may not be easy.  The first area of IWD2 I'm looking at has 5 or 6 scripts associated with each Actor (so far none in the CRE's).  A few of these scripts seem to be dedicated to manaing the TEAM variables/bits.  I'm going to have to work through this more.  There are a 7 TEAM_#_BIT and TEAM_# variables in AR1000 (e.g. TEAM_1_BIT) which I think corresponds to different groups of monsters and actors.  Is this something like a Faction system?  Hmm...

[cirerrek]

I don't know if any of this will help, but it might so I'll mention it.

http://www.cirerrek.addr.com/#Miscellaneous

Icewind Dale II Scripting Information

IE Action & Trigger Research - Excel files, right click on the link to download. 

[Grog]

I think they're used to create "goblin swat teams".  If you notice the goblins that are on the same 'team' together are [gereanlly] all in the same relative area -- except for that one team 6 goblin who's over in team 3's terrritory.

So, all the members of team six will move towards the PCs as a group.  I'm wondering if the scripts are divided amoung the various levels, due to the way certain spells work in the engine (i.e.the override slot is used by Charm spells).

[FredSRichardson]

I don't know if any of this will help, but it might so I'll mention it.

http://www.cirerrek.addr.com/#Miscellaneous

Icewind Dale II Scripting Information

IE Action & Trigger Research - Excel files, right click on the link to download. 

Thank you Cirerrek, yes I found these while Googling(tm)   In fact, your excel sheet was one of the few hits I got for several triggers/actions that seem to be iwd2 specific.  Perhaps there's just not that much iwd2 modding going on to generate more of a knowledge base (iesdp is a little thin on iwd2 scripting).

[FredSRichardson]

I think they're used to create "goblin swat teams".  If you notice the goblins that are on the same 'team' together are [gereanlly] all in the same relative area -- except for that one team 6 goblin who's over in team 3's terrritory.

So, all the members of team six will move towards the PCs as a group.  I'm wondering if the scripts are divided amoung the various levels, due to the way certain spells work in the engine (i.e.the override slot is used by Charm spells).

Yes, this is what I was thinking as well.  It looks like the TEAM_# Globals would make it so that if one hostile members sees you, the others all join in to the fight.

I did a quick analysis of a gobo in Targos Docks.  In AR1000 there are 3 gobo axers and 2 gobo archers that share these TEAM_3 scripts.  You can see that once one of them sets the TEAM_3 Global to 1, then they'll all move in (including ones that can't see the PC).  IMO this makes for more interesting game play since you can't so easily exploit the fog 'o war.  What odd/interesting is the SetTeamBit() action (used in this case to set TEAM_3_BIT).  This make it seem as though the engine gets involved somehow.  Maybe it makes sure all members of a team go hostile if one of them does?  I guess I'd have to fool around with it to find out.

Code: [Select]

--------[Class script = 00T03M.BCS]

If Global TEAM_3 is 1, and we can't see the nearest PC, then move to
the nearest PC.

--------[Race script = 10GOBF0.BCS]
Muttering script ("Targos burn!", "Kill all!", ...)

--------[General script = 10GOBM0.BCS]
I_LIKE_DWARVES.  There's a 25% chance we (and anyone else using
this script or checking this Global) will attack a Dwarf in the party first on sight.

We also check to see if any of the "regulars" (Jorun et al) are in
sight (attack 'em if we see 'em).

--------[Default script = 00AMVW05.BCS]
Check to see if we're near (within 5) of our "saved location" (I'm
assuming this is the location set in the Actor section of the ARE).
Global "RW_00AMVW050" is 0 if we are within 5, and 1 otherwise.  If
we're not within 5, and the PC is within 40, the move to [-2,-2].
What's with the negative numbers!?!  Does this just mean "walk away"?
Or maybe this just makes sure they head North East or something?

Set timer 19 to between 10 and 15, if it runs out we're within 5 of
our starting point, and the PC is within 40 of us, then start
RandomWalk(ing).

--------[Specific script = 00T03T.BCS]
If we're pickpocketed or attacked, then set TEAM_3 Global to 1
(continue).

Make sure TEAM_3_BIT is set with SetTeamBit().  Is this setting a
local for the CRE?

If I'm hostile, visible and I can see an enemy, then make sure the
TEAM_3 global is set to 1.

[Grog]

I checked two of my save games and in Game A (after fighting some of the Ar1000 goblins) I have a "TEAM_#_ENEMY" (# = 1-5) global set to 1 in the GAM file.  in Game B (before fighting any of the goblins) those globals aren't present.

[Avenger_teambg]

Please notify the iesdp board if you learn about new scripting actions/triggers.
Even if you eventually fail with a converter, you help GemRB

Which is (or rather will be) the ultimate converter.

[FredSRichardson]

I checked two of my save games and in Game A (after fighting some of the Ar1000 goblins) I have a "TEAM_#_ENEMY" (# = 1-5) global set to 1 in the GAM file.  in Game B (before fighting any of the goblins) those globals aren't present.

Wow, nice digging!  I wonder if "SetTeamBit(TEAM_#_BIT,TRUE)" leads to this.  Do you know of any other "general" scripts that are run aisde from the area script (and maybe Baldur.bcs)?

The TEAM_# variables are all area globals which certainly makes sense.

It looks like the goblin actors have a pair of scripts like this:

Team script: 00T0#T.BCS
Make's sure team bit is set.
Sets TEAM_# variable if we detect a pickpocket, are attacked or if we're visible and see the enemy.

Move script: 00T0#M.BCS
If we don't see the nearest PC, then we move towards the nearest PC.



The NPC actors are more complicated.  It looks like TEAM_0 is the "town" team and is set to 1 when they go hostile (as well as the Global TARGOS_HOSTILE variable).  Some NPC's also belong to another team (TEAM_1 and TEAM_2) and set the bit for that.  There's no call to set the team bit for TEAM_0 (i.e. SetTeamBit(TEAM_0_BIT, TRUE)).

The ones on the boat use 10ONBOAT.BCS to set TEAM_1_BIT and set the TEAM_1 variable when hostile (they use 00T01M.BCS as a "move" script).  But they also use the script 00T00DET.BCS which updates the TEAM_0 variable like the 00T0#T.BCS scripts except that there's no TEAM_0_BIT set and if TEAM_0 is 1 then they become hostile.

Jon and Reig use the 00T02ET.BCS as a "team" script which is exactly like the 00T0#T.BCS except that they become hostile when the TEAM_2 variable is 1 (Reig uses 00T02M.BCS as a move script).  Again there's a third script this time called 00TOWNID.BCS which sets TOWNIE_HOSTILE to 1 when attacked, pickpocketed, damaged, etc, and then they become hostile and calls for help, otherwise it sets TEAM_0 to 1 if TOWNIE_HOSTILE is 1 and someone called for help (also if TEAM_0 is already 1, then it makes sure they're hostile).

Brogan, Jorun and Crandall don't have a "move" or "team" script but they do use the same 00TOWNID.BCS script as Jon and Reig.  So there's no TEAM_#_BIT set for these guys.

Swift Thomas also doesn't use a "move" or "team" script but uses a script almost exactly like the one above called 00TOWNI.BCS except it has a slightly different "I've been attacked by the party" block.

The area script AR1000.BCS makes sure that if either TARGOS_HOSTILE or TEAM_0 is set to 1, then they're both set to 1.

Perhaps TEAM_0_BIT is set by default, or assumed set (by the engine) if no other TEAM bits are set.

[FredSRichardson]

Please notify the iesdp board if you learn about new scripting actions/triggers.
Even if you eventually fail with a converter, you help GemRB

Which is (or rather will be) the ultimate converter.

Yes, I'll try to relay anything over to the IESDP board that I manage to figure out (and verify that is).

[cirerrek]

Thank you Cirerrek, yes I found these while Googling(tm)   In fact, your excel sheet was one of the few hits I got for several triggers/actions that seem to be iwd2 specific.  Perhaps there's just not that much iwd2 modding going on to generate more of a knowledge base (iesdp is a little thin on iwd2 scripting).

Good ol' Google

Yeah, Yovaneth and I have both monkeyed around with trying to port the eSeries to IWD2, but I for one got fed up with finding out how many features weren't scriptable at least not without a ton of work.  I think Yovaneth had more success that I but IIRC even he hit a wall eventually.

Hope you have more success in your endeavors. 

Cheers,
Cirerrek

[Grog]

From looking at other areas, I'd agree that TEAM_0 is the "town" team.  However, it appears that TEAM_1 and TEAM_2 can be used for either NPCs or enemies.  AR1200 (the palisade), for instance, uses TEAM_1_BIT - TEAM_9_BIT, with the NPCs Blanchard & Black Geoffrey using TEAM_9_BIT. 

So my hunch is that certain groups of NPCs sometimes use TEAM bits other than zero, to get the 'group fighting' effect, but in a more specific way than provided by TEAM_0.

[FredSRichardson]

From looking at other areas, I'd agree that TEAM_0 is the "town" team.  However, it appears that TEAM_1 and TEAM_2 can be used for either NPCs or enemies.  AR1200 (the palisade), for instance, uses TEAM_1_BIT - TEAM_9_BIT, with the NPCs Blanchard & Black Geoffrey using TEAM_9_BIT. 

So my hunch is that certain groups of NPCs sometimes use TEAM bits other than zero, to get the 'group fighting' effect, but in a more specific way than provided by TEAM_0.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right.  (I just meant that TEAM_1 and TEAM_2 were used for NPC's in AR1000).
 
That's great to know that TEAM_0 is pretty much consistently used for townies.  I did a search with NI and couldn't find a SetTeamBit for TEAM_0_BIT, so I think this is handled specially some how (or may be the default).  I wonder if multiple team bits are ever set for one Actor (I'm imagining this is a "bit-field" type of flag which would work this way).

Just for fun I did a little searching around and found that AR3000 sets 14 "team bits" (so I take it there are 14 squads of monsters).  I couldn't quite figure out how the warg summoning works (it's pretty neat how the drums work).

But I think the main thing I have to try and think about is how to do the translation.  I don't mind doing a tedious and detailed translation of one area if I can learn now to automate the process from that, or figure out what kind of scripting would be needed to specify changes during the translation (I'm thinking that all need some new script commands to have weimorph replace Actor sections and such).  I'm sure there's going to be a lot of different stuff to deal with...

[FredSRichardson]

Yeah, Yovaneth and I have both monkeyed around with trying to port the eSeries to IWD2, but I for one got fed up with finding out how many features weren't scriptable at least not without a ton of work.  I think Yovaneth had more success that I but IIRC even he hit a wall eventually.

Hope you have more success in your endeavors. 

Cheers,
Cirerrek

I may not get too much into scripting new stuff as I'm really just trying to see what it would take to translate iwd1 into the iwd2 engine.  But I'm making a lot of assumptions about many things being similar between the two games.  iwd1 didn't have any "team" stuff (as far as I know), and there may be several other suprises...

I was thinking that my ideal would be to have something that looks a lot like iwd2 in terms of how things work (the scripting, creatures, treasure), but has the content of iwd1.  I suspect this is a huge task, but it's worth a try

[Avenger_teambg]

From engine viewpoint there is absolutely no difference from team_0 and team_1 or team_15  (except their location).

What would be interesting:
1. how many bits are there?
2. do these bits anything at all on their own?
3. where these bits are located?

I try to answer all:
1 - you got 32 bits, reason: teambit.ids contains 22 bits allocated. This likely means that the 10 other bits are never used by existing script, but they are still 'out there'.  Also check that curious 22. bit, it also shows that this bit is useful for other than being hostile.
2. - in my opinion, they don't. All stuff is done by scripts, and they are rather simple scripts. These scripts are assigned via the .are file, so the same creature can have quite different scripts in another area.
3. - teambit is in creature, but the area contains a common pool to relay team information too.

IF
  !Global("TEAM_5","MYAREA",1)
  Or(2)
    AttackedBy([GOODCUTOFF],DEFAULT)
    PickPocketFailed([PC])
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobal("TEAM_5","MYAREA",1)
    Continue()
END

IF
  !IsTeamBitOn(TEAM_5_BIT)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    SetTeamBit(TEAM_5_BIT,TRUE)
    Continue()
END

I also see this:
IF
  !Global("RW_00AMVW050","LOCALS",0)
  Range([PC],40,LESS_THAN)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToPoint([-2.-2])
END

This implies that -2,-2 is some special point. Not relative to the actor, but the position of some special object, like lastmarkedobject, or the home position.

By the way, all the group movement and allegiance change is done by team_x area variables. The team bit thing doesn't seem to affect these.
This one moves to the nearest PC if the alert for team_5 is on. The previous script sets off the alarm.

IF
  Global("TEAM_5","MYAREA",1)
  Exists(NearestPC)
  !See(NearestPC,0)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    MoveToObject(NearestPC)
END

The goblins are set to enemy by default. So it isn't even that. All in all, i guess teambit is just a fancy bitfield which you can use in targeting, but not really used in the targos scene. Btw, TEAM exists in the blackisle line of the IE back from PST.

[FredSRichardson]

Hi Avenger!

Do you mean that TEAM_# variables are used in IE engine from way back? (or just a single TEAM variable?)  I'll check IWD1 and BG2, but I didn't think I saw them there.  I'm sure I missed a lot of things while looking at this stuff though.

I think we're in agreement on what these TEAM_# area globals are used for.  If one member of a team spots the enemy (or goes hostile) than the whole team "reacts" (goes hostile, moves to the enemy/PC or whatever) and this is done when one of them sets the TEAM_# area global to 1.  I noticed that in IWD1, I could easilty exploit the fog-of-war to take on monsters one at a time (this might have only been in certain areas), but this kind of "luring" doesn't work very well in IWD2.  (I did notice that in IWD2 great care is taken to make sure each actor sets and checks a TEAM_# variable).

That makes sense that the SetTeamBit just sets a parameter somewhere in the saved area file's Actor/CRE structure somewhere.  I wonder if certain spells use this for targetting (like "bless all members in my team within the area of effect" or some such thing).  I tried comparing a CRE from a save file and comparing it to the original CRE to see if I could find where the TEAM_#_BIT was saved but I didn't get very far.  I'm going to try this comparison again.

This is neat stuff.  Pretty soon I'm going to see if I can create a copy of the first area in IWD1 using the IWD2 style.  This could be interesting anyway